Sigh... they want to use Epee's...

[Kodiak Kid]

Some of the people in the class I've been teaching for the last few months saw some epee the other day and now they want to start "doing epee"... I've been teaching foil to one of the kids for about a year now and he's hot to trot. Most of the rest have only been exposed to foil for about 3 months. So as soon as the other "kids" (one is 58 yrs) saw us pacticing they start buying epee's. I know there's a lot of different schools of thought on this topic and I'd like to hear your practical experiences on how much (if any) time one should spend on foil before being allowed to move up the chain. I feel like I'm about to create a monster as it goes against my instinct to let them start epee so soon. O.K. let the blood spray!

[Catal]

I've never let anyone with less than six months of experience pick up an epee at my university, a year before they fence unsupervised; but, you've got people with three months of practice acting impulsively... asking them to wait may be to no avail. If they bought the equipment without consulting you, then it's possible they'll use it when you're not around, without your consent.

They acted irresponsibly, and the bottom line is they should have talked to you first. It's apparant they don't have the experience to know how painful that blade can be when its used improperly. It would seem you can either tell them to wait, risking that they'll fence epee, behind your back. Or, you can carefully instruct them, making sure they understand that they should never do anything that hasty again.

I know of people who condone teaching epee as a first weapon, but I can't imagine that they appreciate just how painful that weapon can be when it's being swung like a saber at someone's groin.

[swordsen]

there was a time when I was hardcore, mean and nasty and told my students they needed to fence foil for a year before I would let them fence epee. I have mellowed on that alot the last few years. Even so I tend to feel that a firm foundation in foil makes one a better epeeist. Or it might be better to say a firm foundation in the fencing fundementals. which are easier to teach/understand in the more restrictive enviroment of foil fencing.

[Inquartata]

I have never been a big fan of the "coaches choice" method of fencing. Someone who has a real preference for one weapon over the others can be discouraged if forced to start ( or in this case continue ) in a weapon they don't enjoy. You can still give them the same basic grounding in epee as in foil---it's not like it's as different as sabre, the weapon I started in from the get-go because I wouldn't have it any other way. Epee is being fenced a lot like foil these days by many practitioners, anyway. It'll just make it a little harder on you as the teacher...

[epeemike81]

I see nothing wrong with starting them on epee if they want to do it. I started with epee, and IMO teaching foil first just teaches bad habits for epee.

Epee uses a different en garde, and using a foil en garde can be detrimental. Also, there is a hitch that many foilists develop in their attacks (watch some time, its really interesting!). In sabre, the hitch would be a right of way break. In epee, it makes counter-attacks easier. Thus, learning foil can be detrimental to the other weapons.

If they all want to do epee, teach them epee. I understand it is tradition to start on foil and it is as good a weapon as any for those who don't know what weapon they want to fence, but if somebody is sure that they want to do epee or sabre, why teach them a foil en garde, foil parries, and foil distance?

-m

[Cyranox11]

Hmmmmm a touchy topic...

OK so the thing is you are their coach and it is your job to advise them. If you are unhappy explain to them that you are unhappy and tell them that you advise against starting epee until they are ready.

The question you must ask yourself is, are they ready?
If they are , no problem. If they arent, no problem either.
It is your call. If they dont take your advice so be it, thats their problem.

My coach starts people on epee after a brief foil course (this however has more to do with national policy than pedagogic practice). But only once they are ready.
Note 'ready' is a relative state.

Regards
Cyrano

[Pommel]

This topic raises serious questions about what's preferable: an "old-school" style of highly regulated coaching or a more laizze-fair approach. As has already been said the general consensus is that the former creates better trained fencers whereas the latter encourages interest.

Just so you know where I'm coming from, fenced about a month of foil, fenced both foil and epee for about 7 months after that, then dropped foil and have been fencing epee alone ever since.

For my part I like having an understanding of foil if only to watch and/or direct it, but the only application for it I ever found in my actual fencing is to understand the faulty techniques cross-over opponents draw upon from their foil fencing.

A case can be made for classical foil translating over to epee, but the modern foil game is another story. The modern foilist rarely leads with the point, but rather reserves the thrust or flick until the final the final part of the action. In epee, in most cases, leading with the point is imperative as convention doesn't protect one from counter-attacks.

I know of very successful coaches who have begun students in weapons other than foil, particularly in sabre, and I see no reason why the "classical" progression through all three weapons should be observed. Sabre has been taught outside this progression since its inception, and it seems to me that the "classical progression" is more the invention of neo-classicist like Evangelista than an actual historicaly accepted principle. Even if such a historical basis did exist, that certainly wouldn't be enough to convince me it's the right way to go.

[Pommel]

One thing I forgot! Getting back to the original post, I do agree that you have to be wary of people jumping at a weapon since it's the "big new thing" I know of many fencers who fail to excel in the sport because they have a tendency to flip-flop between weapons. If a student finds a weapon that they truly love and wish to stick with that, then that's fine. If he or she just lacks focus that's another matter all together. When I made the change to epee I did so with the intention of fencing it to the exclusion of the other weapons, it was simply the one I cared about the most.

[DamedEscrime]

I have to say that since I am the student, not the coach, I will bow to his expert opinion. Not that I haven't gone off on my own and tried a few things, of course, but I respect my coach and trust him to know what I can and cannot do.
Now he is of a somewhat old school, insisting that everyone start with the foil. I'm glad I did and I really like my foil and I even resisted it when he suggested that epee would be better for me only because it doesn't move quite as fast, Most of you know I am a veteran, so I don't move too fast either.
Bottom line here is that if you have a good coach and you trust him/her, he will know when it is right for you to take up a new weapon. After all, you are paying for his expertise.

[ 07-27-2001: Message edited by: DamedEscrime ]

[Stryder]

If your coach tells you to do something you don't want to do, find a new coach.

If your student does something you don't want him to do, invite him to seek another coach.

The two must agree on the method of training, even if the agreement is: "Yes, Coach. Whatever you say, Coach." (As it should be.)

[oiuyt]

When I first started my college started everyone in the weapon that they would eventually compete in (after about 6-10 weeks of footwork during which time there was obviously exposure to what the weapons were, what they were like, and a chance for my coach to see how everyone moved naturally and a feel for their personalities). We got very solid groundings in the fundamentals of our choosen weapon (the first year we weren't competing collegiately and only a very little at selected USFA competitions once our coach thought we were ready). This worked well.

At the collegiate club where I now coach we teach all beginners foil first, not because that's how I think it "should" be done (I don't), but because that's what we have enough practice equipment to do. Another contributing factor is that it's obviously easier to teach a group of students if you're teaching them all the same thing. As a club that needs members to be competitive fencers fairly early into their first season, we of course have people into their weapons after only a brief basic foil period. This incidently also avoids the problems mentioned by epeemike81 with built in foil reactions hindering the actions desired for the other weapons.

-B

[Gav]

This is a good point.

If I could rewind the clock and start from scratch I would've learned epee from the start. That's a personal preference thing.

I think it's it important to remember that teaching from foil is a convention not a rule. If you want to teach from foil, fine. If you want to teach from epee that's ok as well. On the European continent (France anyway) I hear that a lot of clubs actually start off at epee and progress from there to other weapons. In modern terms I actually think that you will learn more basics from epee nowadays than foil as the classical style is rarely taught anymore. The foil has become a truly esoteric weapon with the actions having little to do with swordplay (in the classical sense). Even epee has started to move away. It's just the evolution of the sport.