Lateral Boundaries

[Crash55]

What exactly is the call / penalty for crossing the lateral boundaries with one foot? I can find no information on the USFA web site about this.

At the beginning of the season I heard that it was pretty much up to the director whether or not to card for this. That if you consistently hugged the edge of the strip they could give you a warning, then a yellow, and then a red. Recently at a tourney I was told that the first time one foot goes off it is a yellow card. No more warning or director's discretion involved.

Also when is the halt called? When the foot crosses the boundary in the air or when it lands off the piste?

I just want to make sure we call things consistently and correctly this weekend.

[Mergs]

I have asked the same question. According to the published rules, "Halt" is called when the foot lands outside the lateral boundry. Any action initiated immediately by the opponent before the foot lands outside the boundry is counted valid, any action by the offender is not counted.

As to the question about the current rule, at my last tournament, the answer I got was:

1. Courtesy warning for first offense.
2. Yellow after second offense.
3. Red for subsequent offenses.
Halt is called when the foot lands outside the lateral boundry.

When I originally read the rule change, I thought it was the same as what you indicated, that it was for repeated stepping off. Seems we were wrong. Except that in the same tournament, I was fencing someone who routinely hugged the side of the strip and stepped off. I asked for clarification prior to the start of the bout. The opponent was true to form, but was never called for it. The next day, it was as we have now been told (got two points as a result of it!).

I also thought that because of the problems with the changes in the saber rules, that all of the changes had been pulled from the website and they were all up for review. I have repeatedly e-mailed George K about this and have only received the reply that he would look into it. Nothing for the past three months.

Anyone else out there have a similar experience?

[This message has been edited by Mergs (edited 03-29-2001).]

[Moniteur]

Mergs: something is fishy about all this.... the update to the rule we all got early last summer, said that systematically crossing the boundry was a cardable offence, under t.31, delay of bout. I questioned multiple directors as the KC NAC... and the consensus I got was that if someone was doing it over and over, it was time to stop and give the card, and that otherwise it wasn't a big deal. I'd personally like to see it strictly enforced.. especially since its so hard to get directors to call people for leaving the strip on a fleche to avoid a parry riposte, or leaving the strip to avoid going off the end, or avoid a hit. The feel i've gotten at events in the last few years is that stringent rules enforcement is bad.. and that if there is no blood, nothing bad happened. sigh... It almost seems like this rule is so much disliked among many directors that they decided not to enforce it. very wierd. I just wish we could get a clear ruling one way or the other, and get all directors to go with it.. HAH! like that will happen. ok, i'll put the crack pipe down now.

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Chris Holzman
Moniteur D' Escrime

[oiuyt]

Mergs- one correction to your post. Touched cannot be scored by a fencer with BOTH feet off, but CAN be scored by a fencer with one foot off. The halt occurs when the foot lands, but as with most other halts actions in process can be finished. One other interesting note, the SECOND foot off is off when it completely breaks the boundary, not when it touches down (as was the case with the first foot) (this of course still assuming the first foot is still off).

Moniteur- leaving the strip to avoid going off the end should still put a fencer off the end once the opponent has gained their meter. The fact that it doesn't get called when people bail to avoid being touched is lamentable but should be considered seperately from the issue Crash55 brought up.

-B

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"Oh but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"

All your music are belongs to us- RIAA

[veeco]

Originally posted by Moniteur:
especially since its so hard to get directors to call people for leaving the strip on a fleche to avoid a parry riposte, or leaving the strip to avoid going off the end, or avoid a hit.

In all these cases, the tac-au-tac rule applies. This means that if your fleche is parried, you go off the strip and then the riposte hits, then the touch is valid.

You go off the strip at the end, you loose a meter and therefore you're behind the limit, therefore you loose a touch.

You try to avoid a hit by going off the strip is a red card.

In all those cases, you can (and will) get touched by a good fencer. The fact that some people are not able to touch you in those cases is merely a problem due to lack of fencing experience.

What sound unclear to me is that basically, you don't get carded if you go off the strip by two feet and get carded if you go off the strip with one 2 times.

I think the rule should be more clear about the fact that it has to be repetitive to be considered as an offense. Otherwise what's said up there doesn't make any sense.

[Stryder]

It was clear the first time they printed the rule when it said something like:
"Leaving the strip once results in a verbal warning; the second time, a yellow card. etc etc."
Then they lightened up and said:
"Any fencer systematically causing 'halt' to be called by crossing the lat boundry with one foot should be penalized for delay of bout, 1st group warning"

I am a strict ref' and so I remind the fencers about the rule change the first time they do it, since it is still new to most. And I card them for it the third time.

I love this rule because dancing on the tape:
1st negates the purpose of laying down copper strips since toe shots in epee can hit the tape.
2nd endangers the basic happiness of the fencers/spectators/referees sitting in those ill-placed chairs next to the strip.
3rd endangers the $1000 scoring box on the table.
4th lets fencers get out of infighting because whenever their attack gets parried they remise while closing up and off the strip. (Gaining a meter isn't really much of a penalty in my opinion.)

[space_cadet]

Regarding hugging the edge of the strip, hugs are better than drugs.

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Cadet à Space

[kro]

I sent a letter to the FOC and got a great response. I will dig up the letter and post it again. (I could not find it in the archive.) Most times you will find that the directory will give you a warning then a yellow. However this is NOT consistant with what I got from the FOC.

Here are some of the key points that I remember. The fencer is to recieve a yellow card if the director deems that the fencer 'systamitaclly' leaves the strip. The occassional step off the strip should NOT be carded. Remember that this is different than leaving the strip to avoid a touch. Automatic Red card for that.

Also, the strip is a volume that extends up to the celing, if your foot completley leaves the volume of the strip you are considered to be off the strip. This means that you do not have to be touching the floor.

I remember that he also mentioned that your foot must COMPLETLY cross the boundry to be considered off.

I'll post the letter in a new topic. Look for it later tonight or tomorrow.


kro