Evolution

[labouche]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Two thingerinos:
1. Very religious Chrsitians beleive that the world will become 6008 years old in October. I don't beleive this, and I don't think most Christians do. It was invented by a clergyman with too much spare time. (As was our current dating system. Jesus was born between 4 and 6 BC )

2. The fact that Adam explained the cirrumstances around the eating of the apple to God, and that God then turned His wrath on Eve, suggest that God did not know exactly what happened in the first place. It's not much, but a truly all-knowing being wouldn't be in that situation.
But, as I said before, I think that that shows a flaw in the Bible, not in God.

Like I said, aproximately 6000 years old. I've certainly never met anyone that tries to guess the exact age. The original dating method was in error. If you suggesting Jesus didn't exist, you are know not only rejecting the bible, but also a historical figure.
Like I said, God was making Adam and eve confess. Also, God is a personal God, he could have said "oh i know that it was first Eve who took the apple. I just wanted to make you confess", but this would have probably only made Adam feel stupid and insignificant. God's purpose was for Adam to confess all.
-elijah

[mrbiggs]

1. I DO beleive in the bible, first off. But I also beleive in evolution. That way I'm always right, and I can argue whatever side I want!

2. Well, in the bible I have, it goes like this:

Adam and Eve eat the apple
God asks Adam who told him to eat the apple
Adam tells God it was Eve
God tells Eve that she really screwed things up, and punishes them.

Why would God ask Adam if he knew it was Eve?
(I'm gonna mention again that I think that this is a mistake made by the people who rewrote the Bible through thousands of years. God is all-knowing, they screwed up. )

[Soldier]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Two thingerinos:
1. Very religious Chrsitians beleive that the world will become 6008 years old in October. I don't beleive this, and I don't think most Christians do. It was invented by a clergyman with too much spare time. (As was our current dating system. Jesus was born between 4 and 6 BC )

2. The fact that Adam explained the cirrumstances around the eating of the apple to God, and that God then turned His wrath on Eve, suggest that God did not know exactly what happened in the first place. It's not much, but a truly all-knowing being wouldn't be in that situation.
But, as I said before, I think that that shows a flaw in the Bible, not in God.

It wasn't invented. A scholar took the Bible completely literally and backtracked through lineages, et cetera, to determine how old the earth should be if it the entire Bible were taken literally. As I recall, he determined that the first day of creation was a Tuesday.

Adam explained the circumstances, sure. That doesn't mean God didn't already know. And, you might note that He turned His wrath on both of them.

[Soldier]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

1. I DO beleive in the bible, first off. But I also beleive in evolution. That way I'm always right, and I can argue whatever side I want!

2. Well, in the bible I have, it goes like this:

Adam and Eve eat the apple
God asks Adam who told him to eat the apple
Adam tells God it was Eve
God tells Eve that she really screwed things up, and punishes them.

Why would God ask Adam if he knew it was Eve?
(I'm gonna mention again that I think that this is a mistake made by the people who rewrote the Bible through thousands of years. God is all-knowing, they screwed up. )

You're a moderate, but that doesn't mean you can argue whatever you want, nor does it by any means make you necessarily right in anything.

Have you never seen a parent who knows his kid has been in the cookie jar?

"Did you eat some cookies you weren't supposed to?"

"Umm, no..."

"Are you sure?"

"Umm..."

The parent knows, so why does he ask?

[mrbiggs]

The parent anology may be true, but the parent is not going to accuse the kid's brother, Jason, of doing it first, if the parent knows Jason didn't really do it.

My comment meant that whether creationism is right or wrong, I was half right the whole time. 'Twas a joke. Hahaha. Forget it.

[Soldier]

They both did it. Eve took it first, and she gave it to Adam. They're both equally guilty, and were punished as such.

[mrbiggs]

Genesis, 3:12-13

[God knows that Adam took the fruit, and is in the middle of questioning him.]
"You have eaten, then from the tree of which I had forbidden you to eat!" The man replied, "The woman whom you put here with me-she gave me the fruit so I ate it." The LORD God then asked the woman, "Why did you do such a thing?" The woman answered "The serpent tricked me into it, so I ate it."

[God then punishes the serpent, then Eve, then Adam]
Had God known about all this, why would he go about it in such a roundabout way? He didn't need them to confess, he knows everything. If the later passages had been written in a different order, it would make more sense, but their order was confused over the ages. Reamember that in Hebrew and Latin, there is no punctuation or capitalization. Mixing up sentences is much easier to do with that form of writing than with ours.

[Soldier]

Again, see the analogy with the parent, the kid, and the cookie jar.

[sabreklutz]

Elijah,
First of all, don't hold me to this argument, it's late and I'll have to check it, but I think it's right.
If someone has been truely dead (breathing and blood flow, heart rate, stopped) for 20 minutes their tissues have suffered damage from necrosis beyond revival, and therefore cannot sustain life, the person is dead and will stay that way.
I know you will say God can overcome death.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Soldier

Again, see the analogy with the parent, the kid, and the cookie jar.

Well, I can see your point, but the original point I was trying to make about a page back by showing the flaws the Bible has as a result of human error is long past, and I'm out of arguments. So I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you on this one. (I don't like that expression, but when it comes to beleifs, things sometimes cannot be proved)

Sabreklutz, yes God can, He can do whatever He wants, including the whole entire creation of a human being all by Himself. Scientific fact may not back this up, but our opinion is based on beleif rather than knowledge.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Soldier

Lucifer is not himself all-powerful; what makes you assume he knew God is? Maybe none of them knew until Lucifer tried (or perhaps didn't believe Him), and then had a big "Oh crap, maybe not!" moment.

You're right, the mugger analogy fits better - but the point is still the same. It would be amazingly stupid to resist and get shot, but you still have that choice.

well, i mean, if god crafted the angels, you'd think that luficer would think "well if he can blink me into existance, maybe its not such a good idea to try and fight him". i mean, couldn't he just blink an army of angels into existance on his side? if creation of a new species really takes that long, omnipotence isn't the word to describe him, once again.

and i think this is more of a philosophical question now. if you have the choice of an easy and obvious path or having a literally impossible task on the other path, is it really a choice? i mean, every second, i have the choice between taking a breath or attempting to fly. i don't pick the flying because i know its impossible so i prefer to breathe.

Originally Posted by Soldier

Of course. That's a hellworthy offense to the Catholics, but I don't happen to agree with them on that point, among many others. They say that if you kill yourself, you don't have time to repent for the sin of your own murder before you die, but I say that the forgiveness is a condition, not something you must earn through specific repentance every time.

thats cool. i hope you see where i'm going with this point, because i'm not going to follow through with the point because it'll totally derail the thread and i'm not into major threadjacking any more than i already do.

[Soldier]

Originally Posted by sabreklutz

Elijah,
First of all, don't hold me to this argument, it's late and I'll have to check it, but I think it's right.
If someone has been truely dead (breathing and blood flow, heart rate, stopped) for 20 minutes their tissues have suffered damage from necrosis beyond revival, and therefore cannot sustain life, the person is dead and will stay that way.
I know you will say God can overcome death.

See, that's why they call being raised from the dead a "miracle".
The entire idea is that it can't be explained by science, or done by doctors.

[Soldier]

Originally Posted by noodle

well, i mean, if god crafted the angels, you'd think that luficer would think "well if he can blink me into existance, maybe its not such a good idea to try and fight him". i mean, couldn't he just blink an army of angels into existance on his side? if creation of a new species really takes that long, omnipotence isn't the word to describe him, once again.

Well, there's certainly no accounting for stupidity.

Originally Posted by noodle

and i think this is more of a philosophical question now.

Haha, you have fallen into my trap!

Originally Posted by noodle

if you have the choice of an easy and obvious path or having a literally impossible task on the other path, is it really a choice? i mean, every second, i have the choice between taking a breath or attempting to fly. i don't pick the flying because i know its impossible so i prefer to breathe.

See first answer.

Originally Posted by noodle

thats cool. i hope you see where i'm going with this point, because i'm not going to follow through with the point because it'll totally derail the thread and i'm not into major threadjacking any more than i already do.

Sorry, not at all.

[The0ne]

Time to get this argument really started. . .

I believe that Aliens created life on earth and the Royal family of Britain are our overseers!!!

[Soldier]

Sounds good.

[noodle]

ditto
i'll accept that and leave it as is
gg, kids, i don't see a point to keeping this thread up anymore
we can at least agree to disagree

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by labouche

I don't know much about the Koran. However, you are completely wrong about the Torah (also called old testament...remember, Christianity in it's true definition is the fulfillment of Judaism). However, i may be mis-reading you. You say "actually, most of the prophecies contained in the Torah were NOT fulfilled prior to Jesus' coming (most notably the ten red calves)." If you mean that they were fulfilled when Jesus came you are correct. However, the old testament prophecies certainly do line up with who Jesus was. If you'd like a can give you some examples. Just let me know.

the third temple has yet to be built. This, btw, is why Christian fundamentalists support Israel. It is far more likely that the building of the third temple will happen if Jews control Israel, and they see that prophecy as relating to Christ's SECOND coming.

check out the following website:

http://www.moshiach.com/explore/kb/i...x_v2&id=62&c=4

b) JC did not accomplish the tasks of the Messiah. If JC had indeed been the Messiah, he would have fulfilled the Messianic prophecies mentioned in Tanach. For instance, the Moshiach (Messiah) will bring about universal peace and tran*quility: "And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation; neither shall they learn war any more" (Isaiah 2:4). The Moshiach will bring about universal respect for G-d, and lead all people to follow His ways: "The knowledge of G-d will fill the earth. The world will be filled with the knowledge of G-d as the water covers the sea" (Isaiah 11:9). He will cause an ingathering of the Jewish exiles: "Then the residue of his brethren shall return with the children of Israel" (Micha 5:2) and will bring about the rebuilding of the Beis Hamikdosh:. "In that day will I raise up the Tabernacles of David that is fallen" (Amos 9:11). He will also bring physical cure to all who are sick: "Then the eye of the blind will be opened, and the ears of the deaf will be unstopped. Then the lame man will leap as a hart, and the tongue of the dumb will sing" (Isaiah 35:5-6). Furthermore, he will accomplish these tasks within his own lifetime: "He shall not fail or be crushed until he has set the right in the earth" (Isaiah 42:4).

The clear-cut fact is that JC did not fulfill any of these tasks. The Beis Hamikdosh has not been rebuilt, and the Jews are still in exile. (Incidentally, it is hard to see how JC could rebuild the Beis Hamikdosh or return the Jews to Israel when the Beis Hamikdosh was still in existence and the Jews were still in Israel during his lifetime.) Suffering and pain still abound, and the world is certainly less religiously-inc lined today than it was during JC's day. Immorality, corruption, and crime are definitely in evidence to this very day, and the past 2,000 years have seen one war after another.

If the Messiah has already come, why is the world in such a sad state?

Christian theology has come up with the explanation that JC will reappear during a Second Coming, when he will finally fulfill the Messianic prophecies. But there is no reference to such a delayed second coming of the same Messiah anywhere in the Torah. JC himself promised his followers that he would succeed in his own era: "Verily I say to you that there be some of them who stand here, which shall not taste of death until they have seen the kingdom of G-d come with power" (Mark 9:1); "Verily I say to you that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done" (Mark 13:30). But the things were not done, and JC was instead killed.

Another aspect not supported by the Torah, btw, is that the messiah will be God.

LaBouche, the Old Testament is NOT the entirety of the Torah, and contrary to popular belief, Jews know better than Christians what THEIR faith means.

-m

[The0ne]

Elijah, don't respond. . . This is the end of the thread! We, as noodle put it, will agree to disagree!

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by The0ne

Elijah, don't respond. . . This is the end of the thread! We, as noodle put it, will agree to disagree!

Isaiah, I'll agree to disagree about BELIEF (i.e., whether or not Jesus is the Messiah), but not about fact (i.e., what the prophecies in the Torah were and whether or not he fulfilled them).

-m