Abu Ghraib to be demolished...

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by MikeHarm

While I'm sure some were guilty, unless you're taking the stance that every Iraqi is automatically guilty, or that we would release known terrorists from custody I think its already been established that some were innocent by virtue of their release with no charges. Moreover, some of the folks who were roughed up included reporters for Reuters among other folks from what I've read.

I don't think you can casually dismiss what was going on as just stuff you'd see in fraternity hazing. Did you look at the pictures and read the stories?
I don't recall any fraternities I ever met initiating members by stripping them naked and having attack dogs bite them. One of them I read of was the soldier talking about he had to throw a 14 year old child to the ground whose arm was broken and the other soldiers taunted the kid as he lay there crying and he didn't understand why he had to act like that.

Anything we do thats bad is ok because its the fault of the victim that they didn't run fast enough? Thats an interesting point to be at ethically that you've come to.

I dont recall the pictures showing the attack dogs actually sinking their teeth into the prisoners, just barking at them. Isnt that what dogs do? They bark. Just because the dogs barked at them doesnt make it a war crime people! Besides that, the prisoners are in their for some reason. The US army doesnt put people in the brigg just for jollies, its for a purpose, usually because they do bad things. Also, why doesnt someone notice that worse things happen in prisons every day, in regular american prisons. Prisoners get raped, beaten, teased and stuff, and noboby gives a peep when its on our soil. Yet somehow its worse when its some guy with a bag on his head in the middle east. Its not hard to see, the media is playing this to the tune of left wing dollars, you can just smell it.

[MikeHarm]

I think that you have a good point about the dangers of guerilla warfare..but it applies to someone doing a military operation in a city. If you're in a city where people randomly spook run around or whatnot obviously innocent people are going to get randomly killed.

When someone is in your custody, I don't think you can make the same argument. You have all the power over them, and thus are responsible for what occurs. Its no longer an uncontrolled situation where you can say what happens is random anymore.

If people don't want others to judge them they shouldn't take pictures of what they're doing, swap them like bubblegum cards and release them to the media. Once you take the picture and circulate it you can't claim its not fair for folks to judge what they see in it.

Originally Posted by fencerjim

I was talking of the pictures you and everyone else viewed on the news. The stress positions and the demoralization. I have not heard of the story of the 14 year old boy. But I was not there at that time. I don't know if you know this but 14 year old boys can kill you just as dead as a 44 year old man, and be privy to information. As I said in my previous post. if it was just to be cruel for cruelty sake then they need to be punished. The running fast enough was an attempt at gallows humor. But again in urban guerilla warfare with such high stakes, if your an innocent civilian, then your *** needs to stay in the house when things are going down in front of you. I am in no way better than anyone else, but I was there. I know what it was like. Can you imagine patroling into a crowded market place, or just driving down in rush hour traffic, knowing that someone or a group of people are just waiting to kill you? Most people at home have no freaking idea. They haven't been trained in interogation techniques or anything else. So to judge what soldiers are doing by media and polititions with their own agenda is insulting to me and many other veterans.

[fencerjim]

It's war.It's all military operation. When you watch the news, and you see the footage of the insurgents with their RPG's and AK's, do you notice the apparently unarmed people hanging around with them. I don't see 'em carring T.V cameras. What are they doing hanging around in a fire fight? If they get picked out in a line up or arrested thats their fault if they're actually "innocent". Innocents run for cover. I've never seen any U.S. fire on unarmed civilians running away. It is war, unfortunately innocent people die. There is nothing that can be done about it, unless the innocents want to help weed out the bad guys in their own backyard.
Yes when you have a prisoner in your custody you are responsible for his protection, but you are also responsible to your men, and your mission. If your mission is to gather intel to save you and yours, then you do what you can. Yes it was stupid for the pictures to leak out. Those soldiers were ignorant, and poorly trained in operational security. But you have to understand that pictures can be used for interogation in the future.

[Phoenix]

Curiosity killed the cat. Maybe thoughs people want to live their lives and not stay in there homes because we are there. Maybe those innocent people just want to see what is going on. I probably would.

I heard that too about the photos being used in interrogations. But thousands and thousands of pictures don't have to be taken for this.

There have to be other ways to interrogate people that to humilliate them like that. I'm sorry, but there has to be different ways; you can't just do that to people to get info.

I wouldn't want to be treated like that because I was standing next to a fire fight and people think I might have info.

[Soldier]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

There have to be other ways to interrogate people that to humilliate them like that. I'm sorry, but there has to be different ways; you can't just do that to people to get info.

Like?

What would you suggest? Should we beat them mercilessly? Start breaking limbs? There's always the old bamboo splints under the fingernails that the Vietnamese enjoyed using.

They have information.
We need that information.
Humiliation is probably one of the best and least harmful ways to get it.
Humiliation is not torture.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

How about Limburger cheese under the nose?

Anyone seen the movie LA confidential? Thats the way to interrogate people, hush hush.

[Phoenix]

I don't know. I'm not an interrogator.

[fencerjim]

HA! The ole stinky cheese under the nose trick. DFP I think you have vays of making some von talk.

[Soldier]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

I don't know. I'm not an interrogator.

Then lay off criticizing those who are, and have been carefully trained in it.

[Philistine]

Originally Posted by Soldier

Then lay off criticizing those who are, and have been carefully trained in it.

To be fair-- a number of the actions alleged to have taken place at Abu Ghraib (and some others) violate Army regulations, military law, United States law and international law. If we want to change our laws (and which treaties we are party to) in order to allow those types of actions, fine--but as of now they are not allowable.

The question of whether the actions are effective or not is a different one--and not necessarily noncontroversial either.

--Philistine

[Soldier]

I understand that. I'm just responding to Phoenix's condemnation of using humiliation. I mean, what else is there? Asking nicely? I'm not by any means condoning illegal behavior.

[mrbiggs]

I really disagree with anyone who thinks that the torture of prisoners is acceptable under any circumstances. I think that the torture in Abu Gharib is embarrassing, and the soldiers involved should be ashamed.

On the other hand, I don't find it surprising. In EVERY war EVER, there has been torture of prisoners. It comes with the life and death situations, the strong patriotism, and the anger and fear of the people you're fighting. This isn't something that should be blamed on Rumsfeld or the Bush administration (I say this even though I am against Bush), because they had nothing to do with it. The soldiers involved should be punished, and we should move on.

[fencerjim]

Do you know something I don't? I mean I don't know of any torture in Abu Ghraib. What is torture to you? Stress positions, lack of sleep, humiliation, and mind games are acceptable forms of interogation. I guess we could kill them with kindness, we can all have group hugs and leave little chocolates on their pillows at night. Mean while their buddies are setting off car bombs at soft targets, and not careing who gets killed. Have you ever seen what a car bomb does? Shrapnel doesn't have to get you, the concussion can do worse. The concussion blows the victims guts into their mouth for one thing. When the U.N and red cross was bombed by these poor misguided individuals, civilians were bringing us body parts from about three miles away. I know! lets let them behead whoever they want to when they want, time is not an issue, right? Lets tickle them into letting us know where the next target is, or where any hostages are. Yeah thats the ticket. If its your spouse or child targeted, you would do what ever you could, short of mass murder to save them. If you wouldn't, I feel sorry for your family.

[Artisan]

- looks like more than just a few "bad apples" ...
And, FencerJim: Why defend a position that even the Army acknowledges is indefensable? By their own own reports they refer to beatings of prisoners as assaults when prosecuting those responsible, not as legitimate interrogation techniques.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004May31.html

By Bradley Graham
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, June 1, 2004; Page A01

Over the past year and a half, the Army has opened investigations into at least 91 cases of possible misconduct by U.S. soldiers against detainees and civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan, a total not previously reported and one that points to a broader range of wrongful behavior than defense officials have acknowledged.
The figure, provided by a senior Army official, extends beyond the much-publicized abuse of detainees in military-run prisons to include the mistreatment of dozens of Iraqis in U.S. custody outside detention centers. It covers not only cases that resulted in death but also those that involved nonlethal assaults. It also includes as many as 18 instances of U.S. soldiers in Iraq allegedly stealing money, jewelry or other property.
Taken together, the 91 cases indicate misconduct by U.S. troops wider in type and greater in number than suggested by the focus simply on the mistreatment of Iraqis held at the Abu Ghraib prison outside Baghdad. The majority of the cases under investigation occurred in Iraq, although the Army has not provided an exact accounting of all the locations.

an on and on and on...and in USA TODAY:

3rd of detainees who died were assaulted
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...on-abuse_x.htm

By Tom Squitieri and Dave Moniz, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON — More than a third of the prisoners who died in U.S. custody in Iraq and Afghanistan were shot, strangled or beaten by U.S. personnel before they died, according to death certificates and a high-ranking U.S. military official.

The military official, who has direct knowledge of ongoing Pentagon investigations of the deaths, said that 15 of 37 prisoners who have died since December 2002 appear to have been killed or put in grave danger by U.S. troops or interrogators. In some cases, the immediate cause of death was listed as a heart attack, but that was in turn caused by a beating.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Artisan

Over the past year and a half, the Army has opened investigations into at least 91 cases of possible misconduct by U.S. soldiers against detainees and civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan, a total not previously reported and one that points to a broader range of wrongful behavior than defense officials have acknowledged.

The writer drew an unwarranted conclusion: it doesn't necessarily "point to" any such thing. "Investigations" do not always lead to findings of wrongdoing. Often they are the result of a complaint by the alleged victim or agents thereof, and the motives for such complaints are not always pure. Talk to any corrections officer in an American prison and the stories of the lengths to which prisoners will go to harm guards they don't like will raise your hair. I suspect that it's the same everywhere...and now throw in the fact that we're dealing with people who hate all Americans from the outset---how many groundless allegations are probably made under those circumstances?

This is not to justify any real abuses, or even to imply that allegations ought not be investigated. But we shouldn't reverse the standard to guilty until proven innocent, as the journalist seems to have done, either.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by fencerjim

I guess we could kill them with kindness, we can all have group hugs and leave little chocolates on their pillows at night.

I suggest the Comfy Chair.

[Philistine]

Originally Posted by fencerjim

Do you know something I don't? I mean I don't know of any torture in Abu Ghraib. What is torture to you?
{snip}

Torture to me would include: Forced sodominzation. Rape. Beating. Threats of death. Threats of infliction of great pain or bodily harm. Attacks by dogs.

What is torture to you?

--Philistine

[Inquartata]

Being made to watch foil bouts.

[Schiavona]

Being made to Referee foil bouts.

[MikeHarm]

Newbie dry sabre, where you are wearing shorts instead of knickers and a half-jacket.