When to Start Epee?

[Krenn]

Hello,

I am a beginning foil fencer. I have been fencing for almost 3 months now. At my club (probably like most places) we all start with foil.

I think that eventually I would like to switch to epee but several websites and books recommend learning foil well before swithing. Nick Evangelista's book, in particular, stresses this. (No, I am not, and nor do I seek to become, a classical fencer but there are only 3 books on fencing in the local Barnes & Noble and 2 of them are his!)

I would appreciate hearing your thoughts about this. I know that Evangelista's views can be fairly controversial, and many feel that starting in a non-foil weapon is acceptable. If you think Evangelista's advice is old-fashioned, I would love to hear about it.

Also, if you agree with Evangelista (either somewhat, or whole-heartedly), then how far do I need to go in foil? Does this mean that I need to progress to competition level foil, learning flicks, marching attacks, etc.? Or does it mean that I just need to learn the basics?

Thanks!

[noodle]

it depends entirely on your coach and their beliefs.

there is no absolute one best way. if there was, everyone would be doing it. foil is a good medium between the other weapons and it wouldn't hurt you to keep training until you're ready for epee. but if you feel you want to get a start on fencing epee now because you're certain you want to switch, talk to your coach.

if it gives you any idea what you should do, i was a foilist for 1.5 years who competed in a few nacs and summer nationals, was a strong D rated fencer who flicked and marched when i needed to, but switched to epee and am doing much better now in epee.

p.s.: if you're looking for a good sport fencing book, go buy the big book of fencing by rudy volkmann or foil, epee, and sabre fencing by garrett and kaidanov

[daveappr]

The high school program I started in had the coach select your weapon more by body type than anything, we all did footwrk together for about three weeks, then he took tall lanky people for epee, shorter people for sabre, etc. If you appeared quick on your feet he put you in foil. We all had some degree of success and eventually we spoke to him about changing weapons, give it some time and enjoy the conversation of the blades. When you feel ready discuss it with your coach.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Frankly, Try epee. If you enjoy it more than foil, than you are ready. The weapon that you are destined for, when you fence it, will feel like reading a good novel, or taking a walk and talking with a good friend. If after your fence epee, foil feels empty and hollow, than epee is your weapon. After all, if your dont enjoy your weapon, that what will drive you to improve? This is all totally subjective, but for me, my first bout of epee felt like I just picked up a good book, and from the start, it was enjoyable. Not like that with my first saber bout. Now saber and foil feel unfullfilling for me, like an instruction manuel. Fence what you love, whether it be the patience of epee, the tactical endeavors of foil, or the bravado of saber, make sure you enjoy it.

[nahouw]

Also, if you agree with Evangelista (either somewhat, or whole-heartedly), then how far do I need to go in foil? Does this mean that I need to progress to competition level foil, learning flicks, marching attacks, etc.? Or does it mean that I just need to learn the basics?

Thanks!

I think that Envangelista brings out good points as to the principle of the importance of learning foil first, but then he gets into his own opinions about fencing....

I think that it is always best to get your fundamentals down pat with foil before transitioning to another weapon -- those who go to épée too soon will wind up handicapping themselves -- sure, by their switch, they might be getting better results based on their tempermant for the weapon, however, without the sound fundamentals of foil, they will see their success plateau, and they won't have the skills to climb off that plateau.

It is much better to get a sound grasp on foil before transitioning to épée. This just means the time necessary to understand and operate in a scenario with right-of-way. Once this implied timing is understood, then you can transition to épée. If starting with épée, then you just have the propensity to counter-attack without understanding the correct timing for counter-attacking.

At my club, a primarily épée club, the coach would periodically force all to fence foil --many didn't like it, but it was just an exercise to instill good habits. And by this exercise, he did have many national champion épéists.

[telkanuru]

I started in epee. I don't think I've suffered because of it.

And Evangelista rarely has anything intellegent or coherent to say about modern fencing. This forum abounds with posts saying this, if you want concrete examples.

[Saber-Psycho]

When to fence Epee?

Never.
Fence Saber.

[Artisan]

I believe there's benefit to be had in playing with and taking lessons at both weapons for a short while. With only three month's experience at foil, epee and foil will seem more similar than different at first. As you learn more about each, you will discover how really different they are and be better able to decide which one suits your nature and tendancies better.

[epeemike81]

While there are a ton of thing which transfer very well from foil to epee, all of them can be learned just as well in epee. there are also things which DON'T transfer, and will need to be relearned when you switch to epee. if you know you want to end up in epee, switch now.

-m

[great bowyer]

I started off with sabre at my highschool (we were undirected and uncoached), after i started showing up at the club in my area, i found that they fenced epee the most with very little foil and sabre. after fencing epee for a few weeks, i decided that it was the weapon i should fence.

[counterattack]

I think that it is always best to get your fundamentals down pat with foil before transitioning to another weapon [snip]
without the sound fundamentals of foil... [snip]
If starting with épée, then you just have the propensity to counter-attack without understanding the correct timing for counter-attacking.

I disagree strongly with this attitude. Solid fundamentals are solid fundamentals. You can learn them in any weapon. If your coach feels they are a better coach at one weapon than another then they should say so, but I feel that to pretend that any of the weapons is inherently better than any of the other weapons is silly. Right of way teaches some very bad epee "fundamentals". I have seen foilists eaten alive when fencing epee because they can't recognize the moment for a counter attack. Distance and time apply to each weapon, but differently, and if you are sure which weapon you want to fence I feel that you are best off getting used to the time and distance for your weapon as soon as it is practical. Of course, pissing off your coach is not practical, so take that into consideration.

As for cross training, I feel there is a benefit from periodically picking up either of the two weapons that isn't your main weapon... just don't do it the night before a big tourney ;-)

[Epee_Pox]

Go ahead and start now. You don't need to know foil to start epee. There are some things that are the same, but you'll learn them if you haven't already. There are several things that are very different, however, and why put yourself in the confusing position of unlearning ROW while learning how to protect and attack the whole body.

Re cross-training: I don't think it's necessary to continue practicing foil now and then, but a dose of sabre can really help with your distance and speed.

[The0ne]

As coutnerattack said, the fundamentals are the fundamentals, and can be learned in any weapon. Foil is just most commonly used as a starter weapon because it bridges the gap between sabre and epee, so it is easier to go to these weapons if you prefer them. If epee is your thing, go do it!

[Krenn]

Hi All,

Thanks for your comments. It is great to see your views on this subject. I think that one common theme among all the posts is that I should talk to my coach, which I will definitely do.

Thanks!

[AaronK]

Actually, I agree with everyone who said you should try epee now. You need never have done any of the other weapons to appreciate epee fencing.
On the other hand, your club's curiculum may require that you learn certain things in the foil class (though this definitely not neccessary...I have been to several all epee and all saber clubs that have never had a foilist or foil class in the club, and all beginning instruction was in that weapon).
I have come across many coaches who have had difficulty teaching certain skills from the perspective of epee- I think this is because they are not as familiar with it as they are with foil, and-or they are teaching in exactally the same method they were taught...foil first then epee second.
I would tell your coach that you are interested in trying epee now...you may find that you don't like it. Then again, you may love it and not want to spend time learning foil.
Talk to the coach at your club. If the only beginning class is foil, or if the beginning epee class requires that you have had beginning foil then find out how soon you can graduate on to epee instruction. Perhaps your coach gives lessons in epee. Probably wherever you are, your coach will have an oppinion on this (perhaps he/she doesn't coach epee at all!) and be your best bet as to how long you would need to learn foil before you can go on to epee.

[shlepzig]

There could be other factors in a coaches decision like age and maturity. A fencer that has a habit of brutalizing others with a foil, or charging in may not be a good candidate to move on to another weapon like epee or sabre.

Foil is an excellent starting weapon because it is the most controlled (ie has the most restrictive rules). The smallest target area, and right of way, and point only attacks. You will learn your footword, point and blade control and will start to learn some tactics. Right of way will teach you a lot of good habits as well (even for epee). Most of all you will learn the control and the basic rules of the game.

If you have passed that point, and your coach feels that you are ready then go for it.

Shlep.

[crazy_wgl]

hope I'm on the right thread, regarding learning foil first.

Foi traditionallyl was the weapon for "learning" as the idea is "hit and not get hit", if both opponents are dead, doesn't matter "who wins". (Epee was a real dueling weapon)

So they developed "right of way"

(You have to "defend yourself first".)

As far as "tournaments" if you have poor judging, epee is a "great equalizer" as the judge can't hardly screw up the call if there's only one light on.

(It's possible to hit so fast, nobody sees the action, it may not be the judges fault.)

But a good foil fencer (regardless of right of way), will ascertain his opponent "never hits" as well.

I actually fenced all 3 weapons.

When I practiced for foil meets, I used a "coach". When I practiced for epee meets, I practiced "hitting behind a door knob" with my eyes closed. Slight different practice technique. (Probably shouldn't tell people this.)

(If you hit the guy in the forearm, size doesn't matter.) And there is no "right of way" in epee.

But backing it up with "good foil technique" sure doesn't hurt. (Getting timing and distance down good.)

[KD5MDK]

You should fence epee around age 70 or so, after your body is too old to continue fencing sabre and you can only stand still.

[Zilverzmurfen]

When to fence Epee?

The sooner the better!

[jessicasimpson]

You should go see a doctor, if your doctor clears you of severe mental disorders and can verifiy that you are at least of average inteligence, then you should fence Epee.