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3ngu4rd · 08-20-2002, 05:05 PM

Personally I like to mix up my parries. Its easier to confuse

my opponent then. They never know whats coming next

. I've used most of the parries at least once or twice.

swordsen · 08-20-2002, 06:16 PM

Nope, no sabre. I consider myself an eppe fencer but lately have been doing better in foil. (which I teach alot of) sigh.
Now what made you think sabre?

epeemike81 · 08-21-2002, 04:53 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by swordsen:
Nope, no sabre. I consider myself an eppe fencer but lately have been doing better in foil. (which I teach alot of) sigh.
Now what made you think sabre?<hr /></blockquote>I can only assume mango was joking. There were a few facts you mentioned that made it painfully clear that you do NOT fence sabre:

NEVER using 3 (which IS, after all, the sabre en garde) </li>
only using 5 as a ceding parry (this would be almost impossible in sabre)
</li>
using 2 rather than 8 (almost nobody uses 2 in sabre. it is used by only slightly more people than use 8!)
</li>

-m

[ 08-21-2002, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: epeemike81 ]

135711 · 08-21-2002, 04:58 PM

j learned two from a saborist, i thought it was primarily used in saber, since it's not taught very much in foil

Inquartata · 08-21-2002, 05:53 PM

Two is used quite a bit in sabre. At least, I use it quite a lot, and I see it used by others. I don't know, maybe I'm just odd ( as if any more evidence were needed ).

Italian sabre uses one and two more than three or four...

Peach · 08-21-2002, 06:04 PM

Prime is sometimes used in sabre, but two is downright common.

Jisahn · 08-21-2002, 07:02 PM

The term "ceding parry" is lost to me. Please elaborate...

135711 · 08-22-2002, 03:51 PM

i thought as much, it protects the flank, and then in sabre, you can bring your arm all the way up to pop them on the head, but in foil, if you use 2nd, you have to control the reposte a bit more, which is why most foilist use 8

epeefencer74 · 08-22-2002, 04:38 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jisahn:
The term "ceding parry" is lost to me. Please elaborate...<hr /></blockquote>Let's see if I can help here. A ceding parry is defined as a parry that engages the opponents attack at middle distance and follows it through to close distance, thereby "ceding" to the attack and causing the opponents blade to be pushed out from the target. A good example of a ceding parry is the Prime against fleche. The opponents blade is engaged and then followed as the fleche progress, and all the time pushing the blade away from its target.

Kallisto · 08-22-2002, 07:27 PM

The ceding parry is used against a riposte or attack with opposition. The most common ceding parry is that of prime (or 1st). The ceding parry of prime serves as an alernative to an opposition 6th parry.

A ceding parry is call this because as your opponent attacks you cede into their line and block the thrust. An opposition parry is when when oppose this final thrust by dragging the opponent's blade into your line.

To practise the move have your training partner bind your extended blade in 6th position. Now as your opponent ripostes you will feel your wrist start to be pushed downward. Go with this motion and adopt 1st position. The easiest way to do this is to simply imagine there is a watch on the weapon hand, and look at it. That is bring your wrist up near to your face (forehead level in practise, so you can still see your opponent). Your tip should now be pointing downward, with typically 30 to 45 degrees of angle away from the floor (i.e. toward you opponent).

The parry is not that hard; performing an effective riposte from this position is the tricky bit.

Don't bother with the low-line equivalent of this - oppose low line thrusts as the ceding parry here is too difficult to be reliable.

Jisahn · 08-22-2002, 07:31 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by epeefencer74:
[quote]A ceding parry is defined as a parry that engages the opponents attack at middle distance and follows it through to close distance.<hr /></blockquote>Ah, I've been doing this all along, and didn't know it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> .

But this opens a whole new discussion. Unless I've screwed up, I never parry at close distance. I've been taught (not saying I'm right, mind you) to extend on the parry and retreat only as much as necessary; effectively leaving the foil in the same position. This way, you gain a safe distance, but still have your weapon way out in front.

Any comments?

attila · 08-22-2002, 09:15 PM

If you have been taught NOT to parry , I suggets you go back to the "right of way"session you might have missed.

135711 · 08-24-2002, 07:50 PM

which parries do i use: 1,2,4,6,7, 8,

[ 08-24-2002, 11:50 PM: Message edited by: 135711 ]

Jason · 08-27-2002, 03:11 PM

What you may or may not know is that the numbering system for the parries was invented by a mathematician (and, sure, he had a little to do with fencing too) named Agrippa in the 16th century to distinguish different positions, from which one would begin an attack with a rapier (later, with the development of the short sword and, then, "epee", the numbers became associated with parries).
Prior to this, it was all fancy-shmancy poetry for names of positions: stoccada, fincture, blahblahblah.
Of course, even the numbering system didn't solve all the communication problems. Different schools would often have slightly different systems. Hence, "parry 9" was sometimes given as the name for what others would call a "high parry 7".
Protecting one's back with your sabre, while on a horse, is generally called parry 7.

[ 08-27-2002, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: Jason ]

kms · 08-28-2002, 12:38 AM

One ultra-beginner question (I'd ask our coach but trainings don't begin until next week):

What is the purpose, in épée, of having an en guard stance other than sixte? I see in competitions that octave is particularly popular as an alternative (though often it looks more like 'letting your weapon hang innocently by your side so the opponent thinks you're harmless').

What is the advantage of this? Seems like a much trickier starting point than sixte.

3ngu4rd · 08-28-2002, 06:23 AM

It doesn't seem like many people use the parries 3 and 5. I know myself that I don't use them, or at least not much. Why is that do you figure?

Peach · 08-28-2002, 09:47 AM

Point of fact: 3 and 5 are actually used extensively in sabre. Both are very useful against edge cuts but not very useful in defending the torso against a point attack.

angrylemur · 08-28-2002, 10:21 AM

I use a low enguard every once in a while if someone has a habit of beating the blade (or has to) to get the feel of the distance.

I don't understand why you would do a ceding prime from 6 as opposed to a ceding 8. It makes the riposte SO easy and looks much less obvious so your opponent may think they simply missed and they might try it again.

Jason · 08-28-2002, 01:53 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Peach:
Point of fact: 3 and 5 are actually used extensively in sabre. Both are very useful against edge cuts but not very useful in defending the torso against a point attack.<hr /></blockquote>Don't mistake the classification of parries in thrusting weapons with that in sabre.
While both versions of parry 3 are similar (though still notably different), parry 5 in foil and epee has a completely different meaning than that in sabre.

The reason that 3 and 5 (and 2, for that matter) are not so popular in thrusting weapons is that the invention of other fine parries made them somewhat obsolete (though, of course, they still have their occasional use).
Modern parries are derived, of course, from the short sword--which in turn got its goods from rapier. And rapier spent a lot of its early days as a cutting weapon, before people smarted up to the idea of thrusting.
So the result is a series of positions (which eventually became parries) which have made their way through history and the evolution of weapons, designed mostly for use against cuts (hence the fact that a form of 3 is prevalent in sabre, though not so much in epee and foil).

[ 08-28-2002, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: Jason ]

jspierre · 08-28-2002, 04:47 PM

Hey, but parry 3 in epee is taught, and can even work as a beat, with a disengage, or pressure thrust to the body. When I try it, it surprises opponents. It's basically a page from the saber book.

As for 2, and prime, I think of them as in-fighting parries that set up a short thrust or, in the case of prime, the chance to rotate from the wrist and counter-attack a fleche attack. Parry 2 is also good on the fleche; you step in and make a short thrust like a jab. It takes excellent timing, and some displacement but I've seen it work, and have been hit by others doing it.

As for 9, I think Arndt Schmit used it in a sweeping motion followed by a flick to the upper arm, shoulder or even back. I've seen tapes of him picking up the opponents blade when attacked with a straight lunge. He kind of reassembles and at the same time sweeps the attack up and ripostes. It seems to take advantage of his relative height against shorter opponents.