Question for Chris Umbs

[latenight]

Since I'm fencing sabre now, I'm curious about the evolution of the weapon into what is now used in Olympic sabre. You always seem to know the answers to these questions!

Thanks in advance

[Christopher J Umbs]

Olympic sabre is derived from the Italian form of dueling sabre (sciabola) that was invented by Giueseppe Radaelli. The Radaelli sabre was a

"light, slender-bladed weapon ... It has a narrow bell guard and two thin, semicircular branches that connect the widest part of the bell guard with the end of the knuckle bow." - Dr. Gaugler - History of Fencing.

This weapon was never a military weapon and was used only for affairs of honor.

As for what the dueling sabre evolved from, that's tougher to say.

The first mention of the sabre/sicabola is in Marcelli's manual of 1686. Judging by the illustrations (always a risky business), the weapon looks more like a falchion or any other heavy infantry blade.

Barbasetti says that the dusak (described in Meyer's 1570 manual) was the practice weapon for the sabre, but most dusak experts I've talked to say that the dusak was the practice weapon for the longsword, not the sabre.

Barbasetti is a much better teacher of dueling tactics than he is of history, but he points out

"The assertion that sabre fencing is of fairly recent origin is totally erroneous. All that is necessary to convince oneself of this is to analyze its technique and to compare it with that of the heavy weapons used by the Ancients. The inprovements suggested by the changes in the times and customs sustain rather than refute our theory. The curve given the weapon (imitating the scimitar) is devised solely to facilitate its use in combat on horseback." M. Barbasetti - Art of the Foil

Amberger relates that "From the 18th century up until the 1870's the curved bladed saber was a sub-catagorey of cut-and-thrust borasword." He adds that "Barbasetti, founder of the Vienna Neustadt school, already represents the new Radaelli method of the sciabola di terrerno. This is the dueling weapon of choice for Italian officers and gentlemen - and as such reflects a stronger influence of duelling reglementation than the contemporary broadsword school of, say, Rondelle or even Hergsell." Christoph, spends a fair ammount of time in SHotS destroying the old myth of the leg being excluded from sabre target because mounted swordsmen wished to spar the horse. He finishes, after giving a number of examples, by stating "The origins for the rules of the moders sports sabre, therefore, are to be found in the conventions of the later competitive sport, rather than in the principles governing the sabre as a weapon of war."- Amberger, Secret History of the Sword.


Chris

[latenight]

Thanks Chris, I knew you would know!

[Matt_Bailey]

"The assertion that sabre fencing is of fairly recent origin is totally erroneous. All that is necessary to convince oneself of this is to analyze its technique and to compare it with that of the heavy weapons used by the Ancients. The inprovements suggested by the changes in the times and customs sustain rather than refute our theory. The curve given the weapon (imitating the scimitar) is devised solely to facilitate its use in combat on horseback."

And I think I'll have to disagree with this Chris, depending on what he means by "Ancient". I also disagree with his use of the word "improvements" but thats a touchier issue.
Great post though, Chris
Cheers,
Matt.

[Christopher J Umbs]

Matt, disagree all you want. I don't mind since they aren't my words, they are Barbasetti's

I'm guessing that Barbasetti is using the word ancient in the continental fashion which, as we all discovered a while back, mean different things to Americans. That's why the AHF (an American based org.) uses the terms 'early and late historical fencing' while FISAS (in Italy) uses 'Ancient and historical' to mean the same thing.

Chris