Fencing Instruction Videos, yikes!

[ThePoint]

Fencing Instructional Video Rant:

Is it just me or has anyone notice that lot of the fencing instruction videos out there are very poor quality?

What do I mean by that? I am not talking about content necessarily, my chief complaint is the quality of the production. My biggest complaint is that you can’t hardly even see the blade in some of these videos. I am sorry but the Tyshler cd-rom was really bad, bad lighting, bad sound (echoey gym), production value really sucked. Why can’t anyone have some sensibility to make an instructional video with decent lighting, good sound and blade that you CAN actually see. It’s bad enough that blades are skinny and moving fast, but having to actually see it on poor quality video makes it so much worse. And slow the damn actions down, point by point with the appropriate voice over! I get sick and tire of having to manually do it myself by clicking and dragging the “play bar” and/or hitting the “slow advance” button which in both cases you lose the voice over commentary.

I once saw a demonstration in a clinic given by Derek Cotton and Ed Richards in which they used a very bright tape to wrap the blade, each blade with a different color and used another color covering the wall so that contrast of the taped blades were further enhanced against this background. No matter where you sat in the clinic, we were all able to clearly see where the blades were, how it was bending, where the blades crossed, parries, riposte etc etc. I thought this was such a brilliant idea. Now why can’t anyone make a instructional video using these concepts in mind. I think it would be a tremendous help for beginners and novices like me who are trying to understand some of the concepts in fencing. Perhaps the advance fencers probably have no need for this type of enhancement but I think when it comes to instructional videos catering to beginners and novices, these enhancements should be a necessity. Any comments or thoughts?

[FoilyGeezer]

Two Words....

Light Sabers

[hpfencing]

I think it is a money thing. Fencing videos are not produced like most videos for sports. In fencing we don't have the money to put into a great video so what happens is we get the B's of instruction videos,......

It's really just not fair!

[telkanuru]

Yeah. And if you look at the WC vids Craig offers, some are filmed from a distance with one camera. It dosn't really work all that well (sorry, Craig). A good fencing vid requires multiple angles, slow-motion capture (which the epee WC vid has, which is awsome) of critical scenes, and general quality photography, all of which require money, which fencing dosn't generally have.

[Craig]

Yeah. And if you look at the WC vids Craig offers, some are filmed from a distance with one camera. It dosn't really work all that well (sorry, Craig). A good fencing vid requires multiple angles, slow-motion capture (which the epee WC vid has, which is awsome) of critical scenes, and general quality photography, all of which require money, which fencing dosn't generally have.

I'd be happy to get people together to produce this. But, you would have to be willing to pay $100 for a DVD of 2 bouts given what the sales volume would be.

Craig

[CvilleFencer]

Craig is very right. My fencing club uses a ballroom that has an attached film studio and I work as a cameraman with them. We have kicked around the idea of doing real straight to digital DVDs for fencing instruction with a real sound booth and a great production machine but just can't figure out a way to do it and still make it economically viable for production, even if I do most of the camera work, story boarding and sound and video editing for free and use our fencers for actors it still costs to much to rent the space, use the gear, etc to do it without some serious up front money form a producer/distributor and that is hard to do when there is no profit to be made from it.

[Epee_Pox]

Yes, I have noticed that the instructional videos leave a lot to be desired. From what I've seen, the Tyshler ones are little more than a videotape of someone getting a lesson in another language, without any actual direction to the viewer of how to do anything. And it's not just fencing instruction videos, either -- most instruction videos I've seen generally suck. Bad.

It's not that hard to make a decent instructional video on a shoestring. Pretend the camera is a student. Show the camera/student how to do things. Make an outline of your lessons before you start filming. Have a script. Start from the beginning and teach skills one at a time, presuming no knowledge other than what has been taught thus far, just like with a real student. Demonstrate actions motion-by-motion, then slowly, then in real time. Don't film it all in one take. Film each bit several times, from multiple angles. Use voiceovers to explain things as needed. Spend a good amount of time editing it all together to make sure it's all clear and easy to follow. Go back and do a shot over if it's not right. All you need are a home-video quality digital camera that you or a friend probably already have, very basic software that's probably already on your computer, an instructor, another fencer for demonstrations, and someone to turn the camera on and edit the shots.

This must be painfully obvious to anyone reading this, but it's apparently not obvious to the people who actually make videos.

[ThePoint]

Those are some very good ideas epee-pox, I was typing something similar to your message when I finished typing mine but I will go ahead and post it, sorry if some of the points sound redundant:

Granted that the underlying issue maybe budget but I have seen some decent looking quality of a good hand held cams before and I think it maybe doable to a “certain” degree. But I am actually willing to forego some of the quality for simplicity and clarity when it comes to instructional videos. The Tyschler cd rom, even with the bad quality, could have benefited with simple changes. Shoot the video in a room without an echo, use a lighter background instead of a dark gym, tape the blade with bright color tape so that it can be seen, if not, use something else, pvc pipes or something in the same length as a fencing blade…I just want to get a view of where the blades are.
In regards to the videos on various fencing matches, for example on the Seth Kelsey interview, I saw a clip of the match entitled “2003 Cuba World Cup.” If you notice the lighting in the clip was poor especially against the dark wall, just before the clip starts they are on guard position but notice that the blade is completely invisible to the eye and during the course of the bout you can sort of make out the blade when they are in the center of the piste where there happens to be a bright light from above. I am not looking for 100,000 candle power so that it blinds the fencers but enough to get a good illumination. A tripod would also have eliminated the shaking, but this would have been under the assumption that the event organizers were willing to cooperate by providing the light and also a clear view area to shoot the action. I still do not believe that it would take a big budget to shoot a decent video, I believe if you can get some cooperation from the event organizers, good lighting, few good cams on a tripod placed strategically through out the area and a decent editing software, it maybe doable. And even with the best of intentions, I think lot of these tournament events are being shot by fencers and edited by fencers without any basic knowledge of its use. Obviously leaving it completely up to someone who does not have any knowledge about fencing would bring about the opposite result, so a good balance must be achieved. I think it might be helpful to find someone who has some knowledge about camera work, film editing. It doesn’t have to be a professional, even a graduating film students who’s willing to work for a very small fee or free would be a better option and then go from there.

[grphiw]

I think it is a money thing. Fencing videos are not produced like most videos for sports. In fencing we don't have the money to put into a great video so what happens is we get the B's of instruction videos,......

It's really just not fair!

I agree. There simply is not enough money because the sport is not popular enough to warrant a lot of money coming in. It's a trade off: you can have a good conversation starter/continuer by saying you fence (keep it relatively unpopular), or you can have well produced, professionally done ones. I opt for the former.

[wflaschka]

There are some things in our favor, however. Fencing may be small, but technology is always improving. It's now a comparatively simple thing to videotape fencing, edit it and the burn it to DVD -- on the Mac, it's pretty much free. It won't be long before a bunch of quasi-professional looking (but good quality content) 'how-to' guides start appearing on the fencing market. I'm looking forward to this, because though it won't improve the image of fencing, it will certainly start improving the quality of fencing overall.

One thing I now know from experience -- people won't get rich making fencing training products. It's done from love of the sport or out of benevolent egotism.

The product that will rake in the dough is a mass-market "Learn to fence at home" sort of DVD that is targeted at non-fencers. Imagine a DVD version of an Evangelista book... he gets wide distribution because he targets non- or new fencers, not existing fencers. Such a DVD product would be complicated by the requirement of having equipment... but a DVD + 2 whacky whackers might be sufficient.

As for the image of fencing... there was a thread about the "Fencing Film Festival." It's simmering now, but I bet it won't be long before something gets organized and people start producing some cool-ish fencing videos.

[Rolls]

Imagine a DVD version of an Evangelista book...

PLEASE don't say that. I just recieved a copy of Fencers Quarterly (magazine edited by Evangilista). I can't believe the disallusioned material published in it. I used to have some respect for Evangalista (I own 3 books by him). I don't think I do anymore.

Here are a few quotes from the magazine:

"Contemporary Epee is a degenerate form of fencing, bearing no resemblance to the activity which it was designed to emulate."
- Richard J Gradkowski

I wonder how many duels he's watched in person or seen live video of? I wonder how many contemporary epee bouts he's seen? Does this author really have a basis for this comparison?

"What if sport fencing stopped calling itself 'fencing' and simply changed its name to, say, 'Whippo'? Then, there would be no disagreements in the fencing world about rules and techniques. Fencing could be called FENCING, and the US Whippo Association could 'evolve' to its heart content."
- Nick Evangelista

Cute, because 98.9% of the fencing community in the world thinks he is 99.8% wrong he wants everyone else to stop calling what they do fencing. How about this, wouldn't it be nice if Evangelista stopped pretending to be a fencer, put down his foil, epee, saber, or any form of sword or practice weapon and never picked it up again. I can honestly say that I DON'T see what he contributes to fencing.

The magazine is FULL of other uniformed opinions. What it does lack is anything objective to help your fencing. I wonder what Evagelista thinks of the new FIE rules changes? Anyway, under what circumstances is the classical style that he prescribes better? I would love to see a live duel between a World Champion and ANY non-competitive classical fencer. I am certain of the outcome of that encounter.

Now to be fair, since I think Evangelista will end up reading this. I don't really think that he should stop fencing. I DO think that he should give modern fencing a chance. I used to be a clasical fencer blindly following Evangelista's point of view. But once I tried modern fencer, I found that all the pre-concieved notions I had were COMPLETELY false. Rigorous competive training IS much better preparation for dueling than clasial fencing will ever be. Oh, just as a side note, I have managed to become a D fencer in modern competitive fencing without knowing how to flick. I feel that I have a strong chance of moving up to a C within the year.

Rolls

[wflaschka]

PLEASE don't say that. I just recieved a copy of Fencers Quarterly (magazine edited by Evangilista). I can't believe the disallusioned material published in it. I used to have some respect for Evangalista (I own 3 books by him). I don't think I do anymore.

LOL. What I can remember from Evangelista's books is -- lots of "spirit" this and "honor" that, but no useful information about the actual fencing. There was a line illustration of the parries that looked like it was drawn by an 8-year-old.

But he's mass-market. His books are great for making people want to fence, for capturing the excitement of picking up a weapon. I daresay he has probably brought more people to fencing than any other modern coach... if only because he picks up the pen. I think many, many people started with an Evangelista book, and either grew away from him or grew irrelevant.

Sport fencing is where modern swordfighting is at, but a mass-market how-to-fence guide won't be about sport fencing. I can envision a DVD with a cardio fencing "workout," with dot drills, yoga-lunge stretches, "listen to the rock grow" focusing techniques, tap-drills with the whacky whacker... the "amazing fitness sensation that's sweeping the nation. Look out pilates!" The "coach" leading a class of spandex-clad women with a jazzercise sound-track. Frequent side-trips into the 'honor' and 'tradition' of swordfighting. The warrior's thousand-mile stare. The utter absorption of the wanna-be as they stare into the mirror and visualize winning the Olympic gold.

I sound derisive, but this would be fantastic for fencing. It's a fad waiting to happen, and it would get people into real fencing.

[Schiavona]

Wow! The first good thing I've heard of about Evanglista that I can agree with! Walter, can you find the silver lining in every cloud? I must admit I started to hate the man after reading one of his books and would say that as for being a fencing instructor, I understand he's a great goat farmer.

[The0ne]

I stopped reading his book or anything by him after his statement that only 1 in 10 flicks land. After that I knew that any opinion he had on modern fencing would probably be wrong.

[MikeHarm]

If we consider each extension of the arm during a marching attack as a flick attack that didn't follow through to land on target you could get even lower percentage wise than the 10% couldn't you?

I agree that the quality of the videos often does suck. Some of the ones I've seen the camera just wanders away and stares at women in the room or pictures during the actions, doesn't follow the fencing, appears unscripted etc.

I don't think its money so much as folks trying to wing it instead of making a proper script that presents the material properly, and studying up on how to make the videos properly a little before they do it.

Its too bad noone has a FAQ on making fencing videos, I think that might help some of the folks doing it.

[shlepzig]

Anybody remember the book "How to get a Gold Medal Butt" with Sharon Monplasir and a couple of fitness gurus. Focusing on getting the requsite attractive feature of fit fencers.

It was a stretching a strength excercise plan, based on training techniques worked out with Ms. Monplasir's excercises and training with the Olympic camps. Featuring many photos of her in luning stretches and like.

Not so bad, not a best seller. I picked up my copy at a local grocery store in the .99 book cart in the aisle.

So at least the first fencing/fitness book targeted for the general audience is out there.

Shlep.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...499905-6616631

[Craig]

Walter - Agree with you here. My post was specific to the idea of a multi-camera "ESPN/NBC Sports/etc" type of DVD for fencing competitions. The only way that I know of getting that type of video today is to pirate the Eurosport feed. The Golubitsky DVDs that I'm selling (and that
FencingFootage has) are of this quality, but we have to charge $40 per DVD for that and it's a long road to breakeven on those.

There are some things in our favor, however. Fencing may be small, but technology is always improving. It's now a comparatively simple thing to videotape fencing, edit it and the burn it to DVD -- on the Mac, it's pretty much free. It won't be long before a bunch of quasi-professional looking (but good quality content) 'how-to' guides start appearing on the fencing market. I'm looking forward to this, because though it won't improve the image of fencing, it will certainly start improving the quality of fencing overall.

Good ideas and thoughts here. I know of at least one person who is working on something like this. I've got some ideas for one as well, but just haven't dedicated the time to scripting it out and getting a quality camera to make the video.

There are some good suggestions on this thread, however.

Craig

[Fencing Mom]

Hi,
I am a freelance video producer. I do small, usually one-person productions. My first reaction to this thread is that producing a good instructional fencing video (producing any good video) is much more expensive and labor intensive than most people know. Taking into account what you all have already said, here are a few things, off the top of my head:
Product: 10-12 minutes, featuring a coach demonstrating approx.4 moves, how to do them, practice them, and explain when to use them. It would be shot from different angles, slo-mo, with visible blades, also showing fencers using the moves in actual bouting.
Equipment:Better than your average consumer miniDV – at least a 3-chip MiniDV which most consumers don’t have. Anything less than that will result in an amateur looking video; tripod; a wireless or a boom mic for the demonstrator; lights; editing equipment with slo-mo capabilities and titling; maybe non-copyrighted music for the opening and closing.
Personnel:Obviously, someone who can shoot and edit; a demonstrator whose fencing credentials are trustworthy and who also has some on-camera speaking ability (a dynamic coach would be good.) If the coach has no on-camera speaking ability, then a professional sounding voice for voice over narration to explain the move while it is being demonstrated. A fencer – demonstratee; extra fencers for bouting.
Preparation: a treatment or a plan rather than a script, specifying three or four moves and notes on their explanation. (I would only script the opening and closing of the video. The coach explaining the moves will be more effective speaking from the heart.)
Location scouting in order to avoid those cavernous, dark gyms; testing of colored tape for the blades, and seamless or draped background if needed for contrast at the location.
Time: Set up of lights, camera, tripod, mic, and background; shooting multiple takes because of mistakes in speaking, and fencing; shooting multiple takes because of mistakes in camera movement or focus (it is not easy to follow fencing, especially close-up); shooting multiple takes of multiple angles; shooting multiple takes of bouting because the demonstrated moves were not used,. .…I would estimate at least 8 hours for shooting.
Editing – for a 10-minute video? – not less than 30 hours. I know some people will think the editing time is exaggerated, but I have been editing film and video all my professional life. It is very time intensive.
Finalized copy:– outputted to DVD, duplicated and then, if someone wanted to break even on it, encoded so it can’t be copied (for the generation who thinks there is no such thing as intellectual property).

This could certainly be done quicker and cheaper but, in my opinion, that’s what it would look like, quick and cheap. There are other video professionals on this board, eh Capt.?

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Indeed, it's the hard costs that kill you. I own a broadcast camera and all the trimmings, but I don't own an editing system...and a system that will allow slow motion, multiple video layers, etc will cost the producer $70+ an hour to rent. Even if I donated all my time to shoot and actually perform the editing, there will still be substantial costs attached.

While I agree your ratio of edit time to DVD length is pretty close, I'm thinking a training video needs a lot more than 4 moves to be marketable, which makes for a lot more shooting.

[neevel]

Here are a few quotes from the magazine:

"Contemporary Epee is a degenerate form of fencing, bearing no resemblance to the activity which it was designed to emulate."
- Richard J Gradkowski

I wonder how many duels he's watched in person or seen live video of? I wonder how many contemporary epee bouts he's seen? Does this author really have a basis for this comparison?

Gradkowski (a former USFCA president) is the guy who wrote the letter to American Fencing last year that referred to Women's Sabre as an "unnatural, Johnny-come-lately event". Pretty much sums up where he's coming from.

Oh, just as a side note, I have managed to become a D fencer in modern competitive fencing without knowing how to flick. I feel that I have a strong chance of moving up to a C within the year.

For that matter, many of the top French Men's Foilists have a very clean, classically oriented style that places little reliance on flicks. Mobility, precise footwork that enables you to take advantage of quick openings, and knowing how to use subtle changes of distance and tempo to create those openings are the keys. These are the sorts of things (to return to the thread topic) that instructional videos are an ideal tool to demonstrate. A 15-second clip showing how to use a slow-tempo getaway/fast-tempo go to execute a stop hit into a withdrawn-arm marching attack would be much clearer than a three paragraph description.

-Dave