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jspierre · 08-18-2002, 03:06 PM

The European tradition has placed a lot of emphasis on technical perfection in its approach to training.

Just how important is this to the sport these days?

Do consistent winners evidence technical perfection as key contributing reason to their success??

Jisahn · 08-18-2002, 05:49 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jspierre:
Do consistent winners evidence technical perfection as key contributing reason to their success??<hr /></blockquote>This is truly a subject to which I can relate. I'm constantly 'harassed' by peers and experienced fencers, because I study the art of fencing in great detail. I'm constantly asking too many questions and thinking to much, as I'm reminded

.

Every club meeting has new people, and each time they are given some private instruction as a group, given a foil, and told to have fun on the strips. In America (not sure where you're from), there is a "gotta have it now" attitude, which serves a capitalist economy very well. But how many times has America's best fencers triumphed over Italy's best, France's best, or Hungary's best? How many times have we walked away with gold? Too few, if any ... I've only been following the sport for a couple of years.

My point is that, for the serious fencer bent on Olympic conquest and even the fencer satisified with divisional, sectional, or local glory ... FORM IS EVERYTHING. Without it, one has no balance, no speed, no sense of timing, etc.

Personal styles develop over time, but should always be firmly rooted on the traditions of his/her lineage.

epeefencer74 · 08-18-2002, 08:04 PM

I have to agree with Jisahn. Form is everything. In order to perform an action well and fast, it must first be perfect. The old masters didn't focus on perfecting form simply for the sake of tradition. The forms have evolved from the things that worked, i.e. the stuff that kept them alive and defeated their opponents. Granted fencers these days have more leeway for error, but form is what you need to be a great fencer. Once you get that down perfectly, you can start working on speed. A beautifully performed parry quarte riposte at full speed is awesome to behold, especially when it is done against an opponent's fleche. I'm sure too that it make his opponent think twice about trying that again.

Sabresque · 08-18-2002, 10:01 PM

I totally agree with these guys. Sloppy footwork and unclean actions will get you killed in the international arena. When you are trained to perfect your technical skills constantly, footwork, parries, attacks, everything is easier. All is left is the mental aspect. After a few pointers, the only place you can learn most of that is on the strip anyway. Most distance and timing can only work with the help of good technique.

If you see that attack in prep, and extend at the right time, but you pull your arm back first, you don't get the touch.

veeco · 08-18-2002, 11:53 PM

Technical prowess is important, but nowadays a lot of the work (if not the most part of it) is also done on physical conditioning.

There are very few top level fencers who don't have a weight training program of some kind.

Basically, the motto is "Find good fencers, and make them athletes".

Which means that the technical work comes in the early days of one's fencing career, and stays on at the same level of load. Later in a fencer's career, once you have developed technical superiority on the strip, you will have to lift weights to increase your performance.

Mo · 08-19-2002, 01:09 AM

Later in a fencer's career, once you have developed technical superiority on the strip, you will have to lift weights to increase your performance.
Veeco,
How long into fencing do you think weight lifting should start AND at what age??

achilleus · 08-19-2002, 02:08 AM

I think everyone will agree that technical perfection is impossible to attain, but very important to strive for. I think everyone will also agree that to be a top level fencer, technique is a must.

People, especially here, will argue over what makes good technique however.

Personally, I think Bruce Lee explained it perfectly with 'good technique is the most efficient and economical way to achieve a desired result.'
How it looks isn't important.

As for weight training, in an adult fencer, begin training as soon as you decide to improve your competition results. The sooner the better.

For kids younger than 18, it's important to get the right info, and the right training program, so see a professional.

D'Artagnan1673 · 08-19-2002, 06:21 AM

This is a very good discussion. One of the things that I got out of reading Nick Evangelista's books was exactly what Jisahn said, people want it now and they don't want to work for it. I know that he rants a great deal, but if you look closely, you will find that he has a great deal of good points.

I think that at a low to intermediate level, one can get away with a lot of mistakes as long as they are quick and fast with their moves. However, at that higher level that person is toast, something often mentioned here. Although I am lax against most club members, I wouldn't dare fence the way I do against them against my coach. My coach has been back to fencing as much as he can

. Even though its been a while since he's fenced epee, he hands me steady defeats because of his solid technical ability. Extreme caution must be observed as any and all mistakes will be punished. If my distance isn't perfect, then I won't be able to pull away when my overextended attack is parried.

That said, I am now working extra hard to get my technical bladework and stance together. I too am about to hit a weight training program, once again.

veeco · 08-19-2002, 11:30 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mo:

Veeco,
How long into fencing do you think weight lifting should start AND at what age??<hr /></blockquote>I don't know, I am not a coach. Basically what I was saying was based on observations that I had in my salle in France and here.

The big difference I guess between here and there as far as weight training goes is that there weight training is started as early as late Cadet/Junior level.

Here, I don't think much Junior/Cadet fencers do weight training programs. They might lift weights every once in a while but it seems like the serious stuff comes in later.

Now, I am probably going to be told I am wrong on this, because basically my experience as far as training and coaching in the US is limited to just one area, so there are problably places where kids start weight training programs in the US early as well.

three_hundred_fifty_five · 08-19-2002, 11:56 AM

The European tradition has placed a lot of emphasis on technical perfection in its approach to training.
I don't know where you heard this. It sounds like a very generic statement that could be applied to alot of other sports.

Just how important is this to the sport these days?
I don't recall when it wasn't important.

Do consistent winners evidence technical perfection as key contributing reason to their success??
Yes.

Jisahn · 08-19-2002, 07:18 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
I know that he rants a great deal, but if you look closely, you will find that he has a great deal of good points.<hr /></blockquote>I was very impressed with Evangelista's book and he sounds like an incredible fencer ... for a French guy

(That was a joke .. no hate mail, please.)

achilleus · 08-19-2002, 07:32 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jisahn:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
I know that he rants a great deal, but if you look closely, you will find that he has a great deal of good points.<hr /></blockquote>I was very impressed with Evangelista's book and he sounds like an incredible fencer ... for a French guy

(That was a joke .. no hate mail, please.)<hr /></blockquote>We're you joking about him being 'an incredible fencer'?

Or for the line, 'for a french guy'?

Cause I thought both lines were extremely funny.

Just to help cut down on things being repeated, you should do a search about Evangelista, he's been 'discussed' countless times on this board.

D'Artagnan1673 · 08-19-2002, 09:03 PM

Well, Evangelista isn't French, but as to whether he's an incredible fencer, I can't say because I've never seen him fence.

He does rant a great deal, but he's still got some great points that people have a hard time seeing through everything else. That said, I own a few of his books and subscribe Fencers Quarterly. I like the fact that he and I have a few things in common such as why we fence, how we got into fencing, stuff like that. He loves fencing and feels that there's been a very negative shift towards the mentality of fencers today. Namely being that the result is more important than the process.

Sure, he's pretty narrow minded on thing like the orthopedics and flicking, but he does have a point that these aspects have to an extent degraded the "quality" of fencing. In the hands of a novice, both these items make fencing pretty ugly. In the hands of a world champ, they can be amazing to watch, so I am told. He complaines a great deal about how too many fencers move on to bouting before they are truly ready. He dislikes the fact that we live in a fast food society when everyone wants it now and with the least amount of effort possible.

[ 08-20-2002, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: D'Artagnan1673 ]

Catlady · 08-19-2002, 09:26 PM

The bottom line of what I've seen is that ultimately if you don't have good technique you may do well at first--among beginners, even beginners who have better form--but when you start advancing it'll cost you and there'll be a lot you have to unlearn.

I agree that we Americans are impatient in general--I tend to fall at the more "ansty" end of the scale myself, but I don't know that getting a weapon into a student's hands sooner rather than later necessarily promotes bad form if it's done right. So yes, if it's literally a few weeks of the bare minimum of instruction and then anything goes, it's not good, but early bouting isn't necessarily a bad thing.
In my case, and I'm not saying I'm particularly good BTW, I got to do some limited bouting in the first six weeks I took fencing and I was not and still am not particularly hung up on good technique, but I've become more concerned with my technique as the ways that having good technique can get me more touches and can keep me from injuring myself as often have been pointed out.
And the statement Bruce Lee made on technique, which someone quoted a few post ago, is totally true in my mind. It's not tradition it's what works the best. In this case hundreds of years of fencers must have learned something.

D'Artagnan1673 · 08-19-2002, 09:33 PM

Yep, theres the main thing. You shouldn't do something for pure traditions sake, but because its the most efficient way to do it. It could be said that modern fencers waiste way too much energy in the performance of their attacks.

As it has been said many, many times before, a fencer can overcome poor technique and win for only so long. Eventually, the technique oriented fencer will outperform someone who is depending exclusively on unorthodox moves or pure speed and aggretion. I can't remember what thread, but someone said that traditional bladework is still great, but one must be able to incorporat that into our faster game.

Catlady · 08-19-2002, 09:33 PM

Just a brief addendum--I swear-- in reponse to Jihan. First of all, there is no such thing as too many questions. IMNHO whoever told you that should be shot. Always, always ask questions about everything. I've never gotten out of the "but why" phase that most kids go through and I'm nearly thirty.

Second, nothing wrong with thinking. Just remember, don't think on strip, or at least not on strip when in reach of your opponent. See, I was brief this time. I can do it if I want

[ 08-20-2002, 12:33 AM: Message edited by: Catlady ]

veeco · 08-19-2002, 10:13 PM

Another thing that I just remembered reading in Imre Vass' book:

Technique is usually important in a tournament, but it becomes mosrly important only when you reach the final rounds, according to the author.

He says that basically in the first rounds you are more likely to fence someone who relies on tempo and strength, and to beat them you would have to basically be better than them at their game.

Then as you move on to the later rounds, the fencers you fence have better technique and that's what makes the difference.

I am too lazy to look up the actual words used by the author, but basically IIRC that was the point he was trying to make.

achilleus · 08-20-2002, 12:35 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
Yep, theres the main thing. You shouldn't do something for pure traditions sake, but because its the most efficient way to do it. It could be said that modern fencers waiste way too much energy in the performance of their attacks.

As it has been said many, many times before, a fencer can overcome poor technique and win for only so long. Eventually, the technique oriented fencer will outperform someone who is depending exclusively on unorthodox moves or pure speed and aggretion. I can't remember what thread, but someone said that traditional bladework is still great, but one must be able to incorporat that into our faster game.<hr /></blockquote>And, as I said, people won't argue that good technique is neccessary, only what defines 'good technique'.

I said it before, and I'll say it again, classical technique was the most efficient an effective way to score before the advent of the electric scoring, and fencers began training as athletes. Now, fencers still strive to be efficient and effective, that hasn't changed, but the method of delivering a touch has, as well as the physicall prowress of the athletes.

And really, Evangelista wasn't the first person to notice that our current culture lives at a much faster pace than previous generations. This isn't a new concept, and coaches have adapted their methods of teaching to meet these demands, but still turn out exquisite fencers.

MikeHarm · 08-20-2002, 08:40 AM

I think technical perfection is great to strive for. It seems like a lot of people become obsessed with either the bladework or the footwork and let the other slide which weakens their game. Balance in your development seems a better approach to me.

Jason · 08-28-2002, 03:23 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mo:
Later in a fencer's career, once you have developed technical superiority on the strip, you will have to lift weights to increase your performance.
Veeco,
How long into fencing do you think weight lifting should start AND at what age??<hr /></blockquote>It's silly to think that you need to lift weights to be a good fencer.
Czajkowski did a series of experiments, comparing results in competitions with level of general physical fitness.
He found that for kids, there was a direct correlation: the more gernerally fit, the better the results.
But, as the fencer got older, the correlation got smaller and smaller till it disappeared entirely in adults.
Why? Kids have very little technique and fencing knowledge, so all they can rely on is physical fitness.
Once they get older and face experienced opponents, their general fitness doesn't amount to anything.
What Czajkowski also found was that fitness that is directly, or very closely, related to fencing (semi-specific and specific fitness) always has a positive effect on results.
So, lifting weights or doing lots of cardio isn't going to do much if you're an adult, because it isnt the kind of thing that you do when you're fencing.
Exercises that improve the power of your legs (meaning strength and speed--not slow heavy reps at the gym), that improve your reaction time, that improve your ability to change direction, and things like that are what will have an effect.