what has modern fencing come to? is this typical all around the world?

[angrylemur]

Every time I compete, this is all I see coming from the medium-top guys:

fencers A and B get good distance, move back and forth a bit.
fencer A coils his arm as if performing a flick, and advances quickly.
fencer B retreats, while keeping good distance.

at this point one of four things happens:
fencer A will finish to the chest
fencer A will flick
fencer B will counter attack
fencer B will make a stop hit

at the really high levels, I see maybe one parry riposte per bout, and it's usually parry RUN AT THE GUY COILING YOUR ARM BACK FLECHE FLICK!(well, not really, but it always comes back to the same coiling chasing thing).

at the extreme top, things are usually different, but I think the medium-advanced levels are just getting out of hand. counter ripostes are rare, the flick is the most widely used tactic, and some people have blades so whippy that you can run past them and still get hit by their flick.

[I see dead people]

why don't you switch to epee.

[angrylemur]

I'm not saying I can't stand it or anything, I like the flick as much as most people. I'm just curious if this is something that is more common in Canada/US.

[Zelda]

Lemur, it wasnt that apparent at the Olympics 2 years ago. There was lots of distance fencing with nice clean straight attacks, and parries and ripostes.

[Puppet Master]

This was discussed in some depth in the Ioan Pop thread, but here's my thinking ...

One of the advantages of the flick/marching attacks (as many refs call it) is that its uparryable while having priority, for much of its execution. While straight attacks are susceptible throughout. So its logical to see why ceiling pointing has become prevalent. This effectively makes this style better or the more efficient in scoring points and not being scored upon.

This forces everyone to fence the same way or the same style, which is one of Pop's and other people's complaints. Many people lament the rarity of the straight attack, parry-reposte, and multiple phrases in foil today with good cause. IMO any sport that can be approached/played differently and have roughly an equal amount of success is much more interesing to viewer and player. Ex. tennis (servers,base liners, serve and volley) even different surface types, football, baseball.

In short, IMO the straight attack needs to be put back on par with flicking. I'm not against flicking, I welcome it into the repertoire of fencing actions, I just think its become THE superior action to do, and some limitations need to be put on it.

I don't like the proposed foil rule changes. They don't address the main problem (ceiling pointing/marching attacks). The rules on attacking should be clarified and updated, possibly with some of the things in the previous thread, leaving little room for "interpretations". Action should be taken against refs who don't follow suit. Whether the FIE has the political will to do this, I just don't know. Fixing how action is called, not off-target, debounce times, etc. should do wonders.

[Bebop and Rocksteady]

Pff. If you think foil has devolved a lot, take a look at the sabre bouts today. Truely pitiful. Yesterday, at my salle's biggest tournament of the year, I got to see the finals in the Sabre Open. What a bunch of nonsense. All they did was fly at each other and whack another on the head. In the last bout of the tourney, out of 15 touches, not one parry was made. Double touches unbelievably abundant (More of them than one-lighters. God strike me down if I'm lying), and the ONLY way only one light would go off if one of them missed or their light didnt go off for some reason. Their touches were extremely brutal, and they were screaming every time they made a touch, like someone killed his parents...

At least most foilists still THINK in their bouts, for the most part.

[The Crazy Wacker]

[quote]Originally posted by Bebop and Rocksteady:
<strong>Pff. If you think foil has devolved a lot, take a look at the sabre bouts today. Truely pitiful. Yesterday, at my salle's biggest tournament of the year, I got to see the finals in the Sabre Open. What a bunch of nonsense. All they did was fly at each other and whack another on the head. In the last bout of the tourney, out of 15 touches, not one parry was made. Double touches unbelievably abundant (More of them than one-lighters. God strike me down if I'm lying), and the ONLY way only one light would go off if one of them missed or their light didnt go off for some reason. Their touches were extremely brutal, and they were screaming every time they made a touch, like someone killed his parents...

At least most foilists still THINK in their bouts, for the most part.</strong><hr></blockquote>

sounds fun

[oiuyt]

What level was the tournament?

Not to be mean, but the biggest sabre tournament of the year at your salle may or may not have actually had any good sabre fencers at it.

Higher level sabre DEFINATELY has parries, and a LOT of distance work, distance parries, single lights, etc. Low level sabre doesn't. As a sabre fencer I can be very good and still be perfectly willing for there to be two lights on. The joys of ROW and weapons where hits are very easy to make. It doesn't hurt me at all for my opponent's counter-attack to turn on a second light if I properly set up my attack in the first place.

-B

[135711]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by angrylemur:
[QB]Every time I compete, this is all I see coming from the medium-top guys:

fencers A and B get good distance, move back and forth a bit.
fencer A coils his arm as if performing a flick, and advances quickly.
fencer B retreats, while keeping good distance.

at this point one of four things happens:
fencer A will finish to the chest
fencer A will flick
fencer B will counter attack
fencer B will make a stop hit

Fencer B will counter attack: I don't think this is a good idea; Fencer B will make a stop hit: it's a natural reaction to the dangerous flick, but it's still not solid enough, in my mind [okay guys, i can't help this]: fencer b needs to take command of the situation, circle 6, keep the blade on and dive into it full tilt, or the 9th parry, [raised arm guard depending on the intended target]- but if the attack is fast, and accompanied with fast foot work, there's not too much chance to react in time with those strategies. ?

[Inquartata]

[quote]Originally posted by Bebop and Rocksteady:
<strong>Pff. If you think foil has devolved a lot, take a look at the sabre bouts today. Truely pitiful. Yesterday, at my salle's biggest tournament of the year, I got to see the finals in the Sabre Open. What a bunch of nonsense. All they did was fly at each other and whack another on the head. In the last bout of the tourney, out of 15 touches, not one parry was made. Double touches unbelievably abundant (More of them than one-lighters. God strike me down if I'm lying), and the ONLY way only one light would go off if one of them missed or their light didnt go off for some reason. Their touches were extremely brutal, and they were screaming every time they made a touch, like someone killed his parents...

At least most foilists still THINK in their bouts, for the most part.</strong><hr></blockquote>

There's not much time to think in sabre---and this is the part that foil/epee fencers switching over seem to have the most trouble absorbing. If you try to deliberate as you do in the other two weapons, you will be hit. In this respect I think it mirrors the heightened speed of a cavalry encounter---two men on charging horses come together a lot faster than two men on foot can do, and there's time for maybe one action ( watch the cavalry duel in "The Duellists" )...

Otherwise---what oiuyt said...

[Peach]

[quote]Originally posted by Inquartata:
<strong>

There's not much time to think in sabre...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Dern. THAT's been my problem in the last few sabre tournaments. I've been THINKing. Knew something was wrong.

Gonna have to give that up.

And I ain't joking.

[Ben[PrFC]]

That's why I love sabre over other weapons. It's fast. In sabre, if you make a slight mistake, any momentary hesitation, your oponent takes over, takes right of way, and you have to come up with something quick. There's less room for errors.
At senior team divisional championships this year, I'd just finished up fencing sabre, decided I wasnt done fencing for the day, gathered a couple of people from my club, and we decided to do foil. Only one of us had ever done foil before, and it wasn't me. We did pretty bad, as we couldnt really land attacks or parry(I still have no idea what the foil parries are..heh) But I was amazed at how comparatively leisurely and forgiving it was. I could very obviously throw right of way right out the window like it was kryptonite, and my mistake wasn't capitalized on. In short, it seemed easier to acquire right of way, as in sabre like I said before, if you're attacking, you have right of way, if your opponant senses any hesitation, if you flinch as you're advancing, he capitalizes.
Needlessly to say, as it's already been said before, high level sabre entails a lot of parrying, pulling distance, and capitalizing on others mistakes.
It's no use arguing the superiority of one weapon over another, it's all a matter of personal preference. I prefer sabre, I've stated my reasons. For whatever weapon you choose, your reasons are your own and they are neither more nor less valid than anyone elses.

[Spanky]

IMHO sabre thinking is done when one walk back to one's starting line...and its got to be quick thinking too. i have found only recently (much to my own disgrace!), that distance parries work so nicely in sabre its a pleasure to fence. the key, at least for this little spankster, is to vary the speed of retreat. for example, i go back two quick steps slow a little for the third, and pause....(hopefully!) the other fencer's advance target area is within reach, esp. since i cannot retreat as fast as most fencers advance. so, now i have some options. beat counterattack, if i can find the blade. counter attack to wrist or wait for the parry with a slow step back....plus of course, second intention blah blah blah. my rather long winded point, is that all of the above defensive /counteroffensive actions are underpinned by feeling the distance correctly. and the key to that is strong legs....thank the bike.

[Cyranox11]

Eeek my worst nightmare, a fencer that THINKS!
Spanky if you are gonna do that then I dont think I will want to fence you when you get here.
<img src="graemlins/jester.gif" border="0" alt="[Jester]" />

[135711]

yes

[Spanky]

Cyr...worse than that!!! a sabreur with a serious ph.d. (or most of one, anyway).

[Peach]

A Ph.D. is not evidence of thoughtfulness, I regret to say.

PeachPhd

[edew]

[quote]Originally posted by Peach:
<strong>A Ph.D. is not evidence of thoughtfulness, I regret to say.

PeachPhd</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm more inclined to believe that a PhD is evidence to the contrary.

[Peach]

I've known some thoughtful Ph.D's. Some of 'em inevitably get through the process despite all efforts to winnow 'em out. But on the whole I agree with you.

[neevel]

[quote]Originally posted by Peach:
<strong>I've known some thoughtful Ph.D's. Some of 'em inevitably get through the process despite all efforts to winnow 'em out. But on the whole I agree with you.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, you know the progression:

B.S. = BullS***
M.S.= More S***
Ph.D. = Piled higher and Deeper