what has modern fencing come to? is this typical all around the world?

**Zelda** · 06-05-2002 11:39 AM

U mean I've got the bull*** I've nearly finished the MoreS*** and I'm gonna start on Piled Higher and deeper S***? S***!

**Peach** · 06-05-2002 11:52 AM

Yer gonna be a certified Fuddy-Duddy.

**Spanky** · 06-06-2002 03:23 AM

LOL!!!
well, there, you lot went and deduced the reason for my bias towards sabre in less than 3 posts. i shall be very quite now.... <img src="graemlins/dunce.gif" border="0" alt="[Dunce]" />

[ 06-07-2002: Message edited by: Spanky ]

**Zelda** · 06-06-2002 07:00 AM

Thanks Peach, thats an image of myself I dont think I wanted!

**counter riposte** · 07-10-2002 03:59 PM

OK... enough ripping on the poor saberour, just because I can't think, does not mean I can't fence...

**servdragoon** · 07-10-2002 08:57 PM

Most thinking in sabre comes from the gut.

Mo · 07-10-2002 10:08 PM

Most thinking in sabre comes from the gut. Serv

I think I disagree. There are reaction times but the saber fencers really need to be able to think very quickly and see what is coming.
One of the best events I saw at Summer Nationals was one of the very last in the event, 14 and Under Women's Saber. It was mostly a repeat of Under 16 without Sarah Parker and Caroline Wright.
The fencing was awesome!! The girls were really focused and the competition was fierce. The fencing was very intelligent according to my hub and son who know more about those things.
The points tended to last a while to with many counter reposts and attacks on prep. Saw some really good stop cuts that seemed to come out of no where.
Women's saber is really starting to go somewhere.

**D'Artagnan1673** · 07-11-2002 05:40 AM

Its been mentioned in this thread that sabre is fast, like two mounted horsemen riding by. Perhpaps we need to make some changes to the weapon. When the director says "Allez", both fencers should begin hopping and skipping towards each other. As they come withing striking distance, they both try to hit. Whoever gets hit has to pretend to fall off his horse. If both miss or are parried, they ride to the end of the strip and turn their mounts around for a second run.

I've been playing with sabre here and there with a clubmate and its an interesting weapon. I really don't think too much; just a sudden parry ripsote. Still, like Ben said, everyone has their reason for what weapon they prefer, and everyone has a right to what weapon they prefer.

That said, I can't understand why anyone would want to fence foil in the manner stated at the beginning of this thread. Foil just sounds too athletic at that level. I loved fencing foil before I had my eyes opened as to how its fenced at competitive levels. There was plenty of footwork, but the blade phrases could be spectacular. We had countless counterparrys in many of the points. Our coach isn't the fastest in the world by any means, but it was shere pleasure to fence him because the blade phrases were so clean.

***Craig*** · 07-11-2002 06:29 AM

rant

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Foil just sounds too athletic at that level.<hr /></blockquote>And we wonder why there's not much support for fencing as an Olympic sport.

It should be athletic - it's a sport!

/rant

**darius** · 07-11-2002 07:24 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Foil just sounds too athletic at that level.<hr /></blockquote>I hate it when my sports are athletic.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I loved fencing foil before I had my eyes opened as to how its fenced at competitive levels. There was plenty of footwork, but the blade phrases could be spectacular. We had countless counterparrys in many of the points. Our coach isn't the fastest in the world by any means, but it was shere pleasure to fence him because the blade phrases were so clean.<hr /></blockquote>Foil phrases don't have countless ripostes because as long as one of the opponents is suitably competent, somebody usually gets hit!!!

If the counterparries are endless, somebody isn't riposting effectively enough. Save the endless bladework for the swashbuckling movies -- if they were sharp, you'd want to hit the other guy, right?

There is plenty of spectacular bladework in modern foil fencing, but you have to actually watch it, not dismiss it.

darius

**D'Artagnan1673** · 07-11-2002 07:37 AM

I've tried, I can't. It just looks like a bunch of crashing blades.

I am off my rant. I fence epee, if you want to continue ruining foil, do so since I don't have to be a part of it.

**epeemike81** · 07-11-2002 09:01 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
I loved fencing foil before I had my eyes opened as to how its fenced at competitive levels. There was plenty of footwork, but the blade phrases could be spectacular. We had countless counterparrys in many of the points. Our coach isn't the fastest in the world by any means, but it was shere pleasure to fence him because the blade phrases were so clean.<hr /></blockquote>Endless counterparries are NOT a pretty sight. It generally implies a parry war which occurs when two fencers have only enough in their repetoire to repeatedly parry each other in four. Adding a disengage, coupe, or bind would end these countless counterparries, and be a LOT more elegant and smart.

Rather than trying to out-jock your opponent with a stronger/quicker parry and a quicker riposte, why not out think him and make him move his blade for you? ESPECIALLY if you are an epeeist. Some of the best epeeists I know rarely touch their opponents blade. A nice feint, disengage, wrist touch will do for me any time.

-m

[ 07-11-2002, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: epeemike81 ]

**darius** · 07-11-2002 09:24 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I've tried, I can't. It just looks like a bunch of crashing blades.<hr /></blockquote>Clearly, you've not watched modern foil -- how can we crash blades together when we're rushing each other threatening the ceiling with our points?

darius

**attila** · 07-12-2002 06:15 PM

Why is it that it is mostlyl young novices that bemoan " the good old days"? Back when foil looked just like in the movies. What a bunch of crap. Fencing ,especialy foil, has never been better. We are faster and more accurate now then ever. You want proof,eh?! It lies in the fact that most foilists won't attempt a first intention thrust/lunge--parries are just too fast! Second and third intention then back to first is how the job gets done. Of course, if both fencers have no idea what an "Intention" is ,well there will be a lot of crappy actions to argue about. I was just watching the 2000? worlds from South Africa ( thanks to EDEW), the men's foil final between Golubitsky and Kim was incredible. Gimme that crappy modern game........

**Bebop and Rocksteady** · 07-13-2002 07:34 AM

omg D'Art don't make fun of the modern fencers you make no friends that way!!!1!!!!1

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Inquartata:

There's not much time to think in sabre.<hr /></blockquote>*laughs*

[ 07-13-2002, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: Bebop and Rocksteady ]

**MattyCam** · 07-13-2002 11:02 AM

People,

Do you think flicks are really unstoppable once the motion has begun?!

It is all target selection. Fencer A wants to flick on the shoulder/back. Fencer B must create enough distance so he/she can parry OR do the opposite--step back so the attack misses and hit with a counter-attack. I well planned counter-attack is just as sexy as a well planned attack.

If you have keen timing, attack in their preparation. Too many people try doing this and get all pissed at the ref b/c they think they got them while the guy had his arm back. I've seen this for years. The only way you're going to get it is if you attack just as the person brings there arm back. When they're going back is when you should attack. It is simply your attack.

As for medium/advance foil fencing in the US where there are no parries and a lot of running and a lot flicking--that's just very average fencing.

If you see the finals at div 1 nacs you rarely see that type of stuff. It only works b/c one fencer is more athletic/coordinated than the other. The top US guys are all athletic and coordinated. You'd get eaten alive you even made it that far.

High level sabre fencers use distance for parries. Taking the blade occurs a lot less than distance parries. Ugly fencing is the worst. Ugly sabre takes the cake.

Infact, I'd take epee over sloppy sabre.

--Matt

[ 07-13-2002, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: MattyCam ]

**edew** · 07-13-2002 11:45 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by attila:
Why is it that it is mostlyl young novices that bemoan " the good old days"? Back when foil looked just like in the movies. What a bunch of crap. Fencing ,especialy foil, has never been better. We are faster and more accurate now then ever. You want proof,eh?! It lies in the fact that most foilists won't attempt a first intention thrust/lunge--parries are just too fast! Second and third intention then back to first is how the job gets done. Of course, if both fencers have no idea what an "Intention" is ,well there will be a lot of crappy actions to argue about. I was just watching the 2000? worlds from South Africa ( thanks to EDEW), the men's foil final between Golubitsky and Kim was incredible. Gimme that crappy modern game........<hr /></blockquote>That was the 1997 World Championships. The 2000 "Worlds" would be the Olympics (unless you're referring to the Women's Sabre World Championships).

**Kiwifencer** · 07-16-2002 03:55 AM

Seems as though this line comes up every few months or so. Agree with Zelda at the beginning of the thread - the fencing at the Olympics was clean, lots of distance control, countertime,parries, direct actions (ie straightening arm etc).

The problem lies with the referee if a marching action (cannot call it an attack) with point at ceiling is given against direct straightening arm ( simplified here - please not start on this!)

The rules are there - mostly those point at ceiling actions are preparations and treated as such - look to see what the top fencers do to these actions - Kim - Golubitsky is an example. The rules need to be enforced appropriately, which is the problem. No one is willing to draw the line.................

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