Newbie grip question---Spanish?

[Ky-Fi]

Hi all,

Let me apologize in advance if this is a dumb question. I've been fencing only since the beginning of the year (mostly foil), and while I like the French grip, I'm looking into some of the other choices to see if I like them. I've tried the German, and I have to say I initially didn't really like having my ring and pinkie fingers set in place like that. Looking through some of the online catalogs, I see both the traditional spanish grip (with the French-style pommel), and the Spanish offset (without that pommel). I haven't done any competitions yet, but I would like to, and I don't want to get used to a grip that's illegal. Is my understanding correct that the traditional Spanish grip is illegal, but the Spanish offset is OK? I forgot to ask this at my club last night, so I thought I'd look for some info here in the meantime.

Also, as I'm just experimenting and gathering info, I would welcome any opinions, preferences or reasoning behind the grip(s) that you like.

Thanks in advance.

[D'Artagnan1673]

Ky-Fi,

You are correct, the traditional Spanish grip, with pomme, is illegal. This is because as an orthopedic grip, the grip may only be held in one manner and the thumb and index finger must be less than two centimeters from the guard. The pommel gives you the option of holding the weapon at the base of the grip.

I have fenced the Spanish Offset in foil and do not like it. I find the grip to be far too restrictive to be effective in foil. However, I fine the grip to be very beneficial in Epee. Still, there are plenty of top ranked epeeists who use the French grip in competition. The vast majority of them hold the weapon at the base of the grip. This is called pommeling and it essentually gives the fencer an inch or two of additional reach. It takes a great deal the strength and skill to do effectively.

Hmm..... I forget that you are a foilist. The German and Visconti are the most popular orthopedic grips. You should also consider the Russian and its smaller counterpart the Rambeau. Personally, I would suggest that you continue to use the French in foil for as long as you can. This will give you a strong foundation of point control that will aid you in moving to the orthopedics later on. My club's top foilist ever, Conner Power (B rated and Varsity at Notre Dame a few years back) fenced French for years with great success before switching to an orthopedic. If I remember correctly, he holds the schools record for most wins in foil.

[edew]

Apparently, this question is asked again and again. I believe the consensus about legality of grips is this: no grip is inherently illegal (unless it has some safety issues: suppose it has some long metal spikes which can cause serious injury -- such a grip will be clearly illegal). A grip (noun) may be illegally gripped (verb). In that case, the grip (noun) is illegal.

Certainly, the traditional Spanish will allow one to grip (verb) it in an illegal manner.

But a more important advice: don't bother trying a traditional spanish. They're not popular for a reason: they don't work.

[Jisahn]

Well, my reply should go over real well here . I speak only from experience, observation, and book-learnin'.

I use the short Belgian pistol (orthopedic) grip, because even though one can still grasp it with a 'death grip', to do so makes the whole damn foil seem ... wrong. Being a short grip, it encourages finger-tip control.

Now for the controversial part ... I loathe the French grip for a very simple reason. By far, most of the disarmed fencers I witness are using the French. I know, I know ... I can just hear a resounding chorus; "They obviously aren't using it right!". I'll admit that the French grip can produce superior finger-tip control, but it takes patience and time.

If you stick with the French, be sure not to use a strap. This defeats the whole point of the grip producing superior finger-tip control. A strap is 'uniquely' Italian.

[sallearmourer]

My wife who has been fenceing for 35 years using noting but a french grip. I have seen her take pistol grip out of pepole hands. MY rule when it came to my kids two years with a french before a pistol grip. My 10 year daughter took 6th in y10 women epee using a french she was about the only one using it. I personal us a french grip in epee when I fence had a B back in the 70' and early 80's. But it what comfortable to you. In foil I used a german grip fit my foil styles better.

Tim

[veeco]

Like everyone says:

For Foil, use a french grip first, and then after a couple of years, switch to a pistol, visconti or Belgian. That's what most people use, and that's the most "usable" grips out there. All the others are excentricities as far as I am concerned.

It's totally possible to convert blade that was used with a French to a pistol so it won't require you to change all your equipment.

<small>[ 08-17-2002, 12:43 AM: Message edited by: veeco ]</small>

[D'Artagnan1673]

Its interesting that you mentioned that, Jishann. My original reason for trying the Spanish Offset was because I was tired of being disarmed. I wanted a grip that was an orthopedic but still retained some French characteristics. From what I've seen, read and observed, the Spanish Offset is something of a hybrid or transition grip to a true orthopedic.

Within a few weeks, I went back to using my French foils. After that, I must have fixed my problem because I fenced foil for a few months and rarely lost my blade. I rarely, and I mean rarely, get disarmed in epee. Of course, epee is a different weapon and it doesn't have the complicated phrases that foil does.

[three_hundred_fifty_five]

It's ok to ask any questions here if you are a novice. If you are an advanced fencer asking questions you already know the answer for, that is not cool. So, don't mind edew's response. It is true, that question is asked often.

Recommendations, if you ever get a chance to check out a fencing store, try out the various pistol grips available. Or ask around people in you club. No one minds someone holding their weapon. Fencing with it is a different question though and you might have to sign a waiver that you are responsible for damages incurred.

[Jisahn]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Helvetica, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
<strong>Its interesting that you mentioned that, Jishann.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">A weapon's grip is like the political theory that there is no such thing as a bad type of goverment; only bad leaders.

My preference for the pistol is primarily because this is the only grip I've been using. After my first year of fencing, I tried a French, and just couldn't control it. As I said, after reading much on the subject of grips, I'll admit that the French teaches superior finger-tip control. Hell, the Italian is nothing more than a brute-force, but still as effective/valid.

[Ky-Fi]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Helvetica, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
<strong>....the traditional Spanish grip, with pomme, is illegal. This is because as an orthopedic grip, the grip may only be held in one manner and the thumb and index finger must be less than two centimeters from the guard. The pommel gives you the option of holding the weapon at the base of the grip.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">I've been doing a bit of epee the last couple weeks, so I ordered a practice epee with the Spanish offset, and received it today. D'Artagnan, I infer from what you said that the legal way for me to hold this is with the lower prong between by middle and ring fingers, and NOT between my index and middle fingers? I hope so, because it feels more comfortable that way. Hmmm...initially I would have to say I like the feel of this a lot. It seems to rely more on the thumb and index finger for control than the German grip did (from my brief trial). I just like not having my pinkie and ring finger (and with those, it feels, my lower wrist) locked into place.

I haven't really been unhappy with the French grip (and in fact I feel I've been improving with it slowly but steadily), but it just seems that so many good fencers gravitate to the orthopedics, I figure they must know something. Oh well, I'll give it a try and see how I like it, and I won't rule out anything, including a return to the French.

Anyways, thanks a lot for your responses, they are appreciated.

[D'Artagnan1673]

Alright Ky-Fye, you've stumped me there. I have a preference for holding the Spanish with my thumb and index and my middle finger on the same prong as the index finger. To my understanding, you can also fence Spanish with your thumb and index over the prongs and your last three fingers as the stabalizers. This is of course the way you fence the French. What I meant is that your thumb and index must be less than two centimeters from the guard, but your other fingers can be anywere else. This is so that you cannot post the grip as you can a French. In this way, you cannot have the benefits of control with an orthopedic, and the added range of the French.

Hope that helped.

[Ky-Fi]

I understand your second description of gripping the Spanish grip---and that doesn't feel too comfortable to me. I'm not sure I get your first description. Let me go into more detail for the way that feels natural to me---I have my middle finger resting on the prong that curves up toward the blade (that prong is between my middle and ring finger), my index finger is right above my middle finger. The tip of my thumb is opposite to the tip of my index finger (like a French grip), and the prong that curves down toward the pommel is resting in the valley between my thumb and index finger. Is that the same grip you're describing?

[D'Artagnan1673]

You got it!! Good luck with your Spanish!!

[Ky-Fi]

All right, I can grip the weapon! I'm assuming that mastering the epee is a breeze from here on in......

[D'Artagnan1673]

err..... not quite that easy I am afraid! Still, with diligence and time, you will see improvement.

[DHCJr]

There are grips that have been named illegal, but they are very few. It's like designer drugs, they will change them slightly and they are no longer the same 'illegal'. The ones that have been named are the Gardier and the Spanish. They both have one thing in common a French style pommel allowing the fencer to hold onto the pommel and still have access to the prongs.

The messages before have been right. If someone with small hands used some of my Belgium and Russian handles they might be illegal. The 2cm rule is the key. So most times it is a judgment call. Just to be save the only handles that should have a pommel outside the handle are French, Italian and Sabres.