AskFred.net: Why isn't the USFA using it?

[Army Fencer]

I just found askfred.net on one of the links for the High Plains Open. Why the heck isn't the USFA using this program or something similar for NACs??

[prototoast]

I believe every time this issue has been brought up in the past, the problem was that the usfa's insurance company required an actual signature on the waiver form, and as such, online registration was not possible.

[Army Fencer]

And the waiver can't be signed when we get there?

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by Army Fencer

And the waiver can't be signed when we get there?

Hey, I don't make the rules, and so I'm not going to debate why or why not it's a good idea. I'm just passing along 2nd or 3rd hand information, to try to be minimally helpful.

[Army Fencer]

hmmm... Where is oiuyt when you need him?

[ShadowHuntr]

general rule of thumb: if it makes sense or is logical, the USFA does not do it.

[DJ Apostrophe]

i'm sure brad will weigh in on this...

i have a couple things to add...

why not sign a waiver when we get there?
any fencer under 18 can not leagally be held to a waiver they sign, their parents must sign. and if they (the parents)don't come, and the form hasn't been signed, the kid can't fence.

why not have a blanket waiver signed when you sign up for your membership?
the insurance company has decided this isn't good enough either.

why not use ask fred?
because ask fred is annoying to administer, it is slow, and using the files it creates in anything other than Fencing Time (which the USFA does not use) is damn near impossible.

other considerations...
when you start talking about moving to electronic registration, you are taking the task of typing in all the faxed/mailed entries away from a person and completly automating this process. I might be wrong, but that makes someone's job at the national office fairly expendable...i'm not screaming conspiricy or anything... but...

something NEEDS to change soon, electronic registration is going to creep its way in somehow, some way. I don't know what it will take, but it will happen at some point.

-w

[Army Fencer]

Valid reasons. I still think that electronic service could be done, if the USFA wanted it done.

[scarlet_woman156k]

Originally Posted by ShadowHuntr

general rule of thumb: if it makes sense or is logical, the USFA does not do it.

That's not necessarily true. I was just reading an article in the new issue of American Fencing and they have some new company, at no cost to the USFA or its members, that actually scouts out the best-priced venues and hotels for national events that the USFA might not otherwise know about because this company has the "insider" connections. Translation: better prices/locations for them with venue rental, and better prices/locations for us (hotels).

I'm not saying the USFA is the optimal national organization, but they are looking for ways to benefit the organization and its members as a whole. It just takes some time for it to happen. I think if we keep pressuring them, it'll happen. I'm SURE they would rather have an electronic system for entries than all those damn faxes coming through.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

i'm not sure about any USFA junk on the whole, but i know that the 5 College Open (which turned into the non-existant pioneer valley open) used it last year when it happened, and had started using it this year....

it's very nice for the not national but rather large events, i'm confused as to why Pomme de Terre is being run on the other program rather than AskFred......

[DJ Apostrophe]

pomme is on another site and not ask fred for the simple reason that you can collect entry fees with the other site. This is not possible on askfred.

-w

[oiuyt]

I assume that there's a fair amount that goes into entry processing at the national office... at the very least they check all that information on the forms, confirm that people are actually members, etc. AskFred does none of this. As previously mentioned AskFred doesn't have the capability to collect entry fees. All of the waiver information has been covered in a half dozen other threads. All I can say is that the national office (in this case Michael Massik in particular) has repeatedly stated that they would love to have electronic entry and has been actively working to get it for the past (at least) couple of seasons. The stumbling block is the insurance company. What would it take to clear that block? I don't know.

AskFred has recently had a version upgrade and I haven't played with the newly released version, but in the previous version anyone who was accepted as a "bout committee" member (ie was entitled to add or administer an event) could change pretty much anything s/he wanted. Not just with his/her event, anything. Change other events, change the records for any fencer, fiddle around pretty much anything desired. Can you say security hole? AskFred is a great resource for what it aims to be... a convenient online pre-reg and result reporting site. Try to use it for much more than that and you'll start running into problems. Again, I haven't tried the new version so many of these concerns may be moot at this point.

If you're really motivated about the topic bring it up (or have it brought up) at the congress meeting in July. Hopefully Michael will be there and can give a more direct answer. If not I'm sure he will be in Charlotte. Buttonhole him for a few minutes privately at some point. If enough people do that during the course of the week he might increase his personal priority level for getting it done just to avoid the hassle in 2005. :)

-B :)

[Army Fencer]

Thank you, oiuyt. That was very informative.

Is the congress meeting open to the public? Where is it?

I'm not sure if I'll be in Charlotte, either. I'm broke, but if my fencing addiction gets too strong... Gosh, I need a fix. I should get ready for practice.

[oiuyt]

It is open to the public. The Annual Membership Meeting is Sunday July 4th @ 7:30am, the USFA Congress meeting (which is also open to the public although only congressional delegates get to vote) is scheduled for the same day at 7:45am. I would anticipate the Annual Meeting taking less than the scheduled 15 minutes and the Congress meeting starting a bit early. They will be held in the same room with the location to be announced at the tournament (check at the registration table on the 3rd).

The BoD meeting is also open to the public (although not necesarily to speak at except by invitation). It will be held Monday July 5th at 7:30am. Again, location will be posted at the tournament. The Executive Committee meeting (July 3rd) is not open to the public.

In most divisions it should be fairly easy to be elected to the Congress. VERY few divisions typically send a full delegation. How that is handled in Capitol division I couldn't tell you. At the very least you should be able to find out who your representatives are and ask them to bring up the issue on your behalf. I know Michael also goes to other events (he was in Atlanta for example) so you could try waiting until next season and hope that he's at something that you're already at.

For what it's worth, the Congress meeting typically has very little import. It elects 4 members to the BoD, but other than that typically acts merely as a *****ing session for people that like to hear themselves talk. A couple of years ago one of the members went off on a diatribe about how the USFA rulebook was OUR rulebook and we shouldn't let our rules be dictated to us by the FIE and that if WE wanted to retain (or restore) the fleche to sabre that we should and just let the rest of the world go hang (the was the gist of his argument anyway). Oh, the congress also chooses the people who, the following year, will be inducted into the USFA Hall of Fame. There might be something else significant, but if so I've managed to forget it from the several congress meetings I've attended. But given that one of the aims of it is to allow people to present their complaints/suggestions in a public manner (and in theory in a forum that the national office and executive committee pays at least some attention to) it seems like a reasonable place to air questions/suggestions about online event registration. I would definately suggest following up on it with talking in a one-on-one (or small group) setting with some of the people most involved in making such decisions as the congress itself cannot do anything about it.

Hope that helps.
-B :)

[dberke]

Originally Posted by DJ Apostrophe

why not use ask fred?
because ask fred is annoying to administer, it is slow, and using the files it creates in anything other than Fencing Time (which the USFA does not use) is damn near impossible.

In what way is AskFRED annoying to administer? It has evolved into a highly usable system, as is evidenced by the constantly growing number of clubs using it.

And surely it can't be more annoying than what the USFA currently does, transcribing information from paper...

AskFRED can output data in multiple formats... comma-separated value being one of them. I'm sure that would be more than adequate for the USFA. And if the USFA wanted a custom format, I'm sure AskFRED could be tailored to output that format easily.

Originally Posted by DJ Apostrophe

pomme is on another site and not ask fred for the simple reason that you can collect entry fees with the other site. This is not possible on askfred.

The latest version of AskFRED allows you to collect entry fees through PayPal.


I think the short answer why the USFA doesn't use AskFRED is this: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Their system works for them (even if it is less convenient for the membership) therefore they have no incentive to change. Of course, if they invested the time to convert to using it (or any online system) it would pay dividends once it was set up. But let's be realistic, they barely are able to keep the website up to date... that suggests to me that they don't have much time to invest on technology.

Dan

[Schiavona]

Originally Posted by Army Fencer

I just found askfred.net on one of the links for the High Plains Open. Why the heck isn't the USFA using this program or something similar for NACs??

Oddly enough, I just had a conversation about this very subject. Peet Sasaki, who built FRED is supposed to be talking with the USFA about incorperating FRED into the USFA website for national use. I got this info from Marshal Hibnes, our Section Chairman who is also his coach. I've known Marshal for 25 years and your drinks maynot be safe around him, but he's pretty reliable about most things.

[Swordmaster]

Originally Posted by Schiavona

...Peet Sasaki, who built FRED is supposed to be talking with the USFA about incorperating FRED into the USFA website for national use...

Yeah and pigs will fly soon!
PS can talk until he is blue, but until he solves the security issues, privacy issues, electronic signature issues for waviers, file portablity issues, general currency aceptance issues, and the general stablity of the software, he will not get anywhere with the USFA.
Did you know that if someone has bc previlages they can see ALL of the personal data on Fred, and change it? How would you like some guy in another part of the country looking up your daughters file on Fred? Or the guy that you beat at nationals holding a grudge and changing your rating?That should make you feel really warm and fuzzy tonight.
Fred is ok for small to medium size events that use Fencing Time, that is all (if you don't mind everyone knowing your address and phone number).

[Schiavona]

Originally Posted by Swordmaster

Yeah and pigs will fly soon!
PS can talk until he is blue, but until he solves the security issues, privacy issues, electronic signature issues for waviers, file portablity issues, general currency aceptance issues, and the general stablity of the software, he will not get anywhere with the USFA.
Did you know that if someone has bc previlages they can see ALL of the personal data on Fred, and change it? How would you like some guy in another part of the country looking up your daughters file on Fred? Or the guy that you beat at nationals holding a grudge and changing your rating?That should make you feel really warm and fuzzy tonight.
Fred is ok for small to medium size events that use Fencing Time, that is all (if you don't mind everyone knowing your address and phone number).

Yikes! A little hostile, don't you think? I guess I'm just not part of this modern age where who you are is supposed to be some big, dark secret. I get mail from people I've never heard of, as well as phone calls. Big whoop! But your concerns are valid, for the paranoid, though I believe that the various hard copy paths to the USFA are still followed, re rating changes.

I should have worded my post a little clearer. It is my understanding, second hand, that the USFA approached Peet, not the other way around.

My objection is the use of PayPal, or any other credit service. Just that the organizers don't get quite as much money as they could. Yes, I know it's very little money, but I'm cheap.

[peet]

Hi folks-

I'm Peet Sasaki, and as others have mentioned, i am the developer of FRED, a.k.a askfred.net. I just came by this thread and thought i might answer a question or two.


Liability Waivers:
As others have mentioned, this is in the insurance company's court. Michael Massik informs me that there is a court case in progress that may change the insurance company's policies. Keep your fingers crossed. In any case, FRED will soon offer the option to attach a USFA-approved waiver form to each prereg email, to help with the waiver issue.

Payment:
Thanks to dberke for pointing out that FRED does now offer the possibility of accepting fees through paypal. While this method is not some people's favorite, it serves as a bridge to the time (probably beginning next season) when FRED will have his own payment gateway, making the payment process smoother.

Privacy:
Some users have pointed out that fencers' ages and email addresses are available to all bout committee level users (of whom there are currently about 65). As FRED has grown in use, this has become an issue. The next rev. (maybe this season, or the beginning of next) will mask these data. (BTW, all other non-fencing personal data is optional, e.g. address, phone...)

Security of tournament data:
No-one can change your results, prereg, or anything else that is exclusive to your tournament on FRED. Besides, all site actions are logged, so any unauthorized changes (like to ratings, etc, as Swordmaster suggests) could quickly get the offender's account revoked. Fortunately, there has not yet been any malicious activity on FRED, AFAIK. Let's hear it for the community!

File portability:
I am currently investigating how FRED could talk to both xseed (the software the USFA uses) and engarde (a french program that also has an english version). Fencing Time integration came first because FRED & FT were developed in parallel by two people who know each other. Thus we could agree along the way on how to do things. I will not have that luxury with the other 2 programs. (you wouldn't believe how complex this stuff is! ) Currently the CSV download is FRED's generic prereg file format that should be able to go into Excel, and from there get massaged into whatever the user needs.

Will the USFA use FRED?
I have had some good conversations with Michael Massik on this. There remain issues to resolve, but hopefully we can do so. I certainly am willing. Try to be understsanding about how fast things like this progress. The USFA office is only a few people doing a big job. I imagine they each have alot on their plates...

Feature Requests?
There are other features that would need to be changed/added to make FRED usable for the USFA, and nicer for section/division/club use. These can happen, as FRED is a growing, evolving tool. Along those lines, I very much appreciate all the feedback that I get on FRED, since that is how I know what to do to make him better.

I admit, the changes don't always happen overnight (but sometimes they do! ), since nobody pays me a cent for FRED, and i gotta do the paying work too.

Maybe a thread on what would make FRED work for those who aren't already using him is in order...

cheers-

-peet