AskFred.net: Why isn't the USFA using it?

[Army Fencer]

Thank you Peet for your words. I'm glad to hear that USFA is working to make it easier for us fencers. I also appreciate your work in all of this. Your site looks very professional!

Please keep up the good work. I'm looking forward to when USFA actually becomes technologically savvy.

[Army Fencer]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

If you mean THS, that might not be the best example to prove your point. Their "best-priced" seems not only to be easily beaten, very often at the same hotel at which THS has booked the USFA's rooms, but seems also to have caused people some problems with vanishing reservations and other things.

I'm not a fan of THS at all. I'm worried though that if enough people don't use it, they won't help the USFA find venues in the future.

[oiuyt]

As mentioned in the article "THS Makes Fencing Travel Easier" (page 9 of the most recent American Fencing (Why don't more people read it and then know what was printed in it? There's a reason the USFA bothers to send it out to every member four times a year, there's a ton of useful information there)), "THS earns its revenue from the hotels and venues in works with nationally." THS gets a commission of some sort from the hotel chains.

While this, naturally, means that it's additional money that the hotel needs to collect (at least to remain with the same level of profitability), there's certainly no indication that it raises the rates of fencing rooms (at least relative to non-fencing rooms). Yeah, it'll raise the tide for ALL rooms sold by the hotel over the course of the year, but that would be true even if fencing didn't use THS, just it would be commissions for rooms booked for Tae Kwon Do or whatever that would be doing it. It's even theoretically possible that it overall lowers the cost of an average room at that hotel just because it makes the hotel's operation more efficient (they have lower costs per room-night because they tend to have high occupancy rates for the same marketing (etc.) costs).

It wouldn't surprise me at all if THS had a most-favored clause in their contracts with the hotels that guaranteed that lower rates wouldn't be available. It also wouldn't surprise me to find that hotels violate this clause of the contracts (which was certainly the case in some USFA-direct contracts with this clause a couple of years ago with at least 2 hotels).

Overall I think that THS has been doing a good job. It seems like the host hotels at most NACs this year were $89-99/night whereas the past few years it's been $99-109. Not a huge difference, but $10/night isn't trivial either. If they're additionally saving the USFA on venue prices then they seem to be doing a great job. Add in the fact that neither the fencers nor the USFA (directly at least) pays them and I applaud the USFA for signing up with them. If you can do better on your own then of course do so. Meanwhile the default position of just blindly signing up for whatever is listed as the host hotel and fencing rate has gotten a bit cheaper for those that don't put in the time and trouble of rolling their own.

Bashing THS or the USFA for using them is a non-starter as far as I can see. We (the average fencer) are better off with this relationship than we were in the couple of years before it.

-B :)

[Epee_Pox]

Originally Posted by DJ Apostrophe

any fencer under 18 can not leagally be held to a waiver they sign, their parents must sign.

Dirty secret, but liability waivers are legally unenforceable, regardless of how old you are. No court will enforce a waiver of your right to sue when injured by the negligence of another. And the fact that they are not a negotiated agreement, but rather a compulsory formality, also renders them less than useful should the event organizers get sued.

These forms are used everywhere, however, because they really do reduce the number of lawsuits. People erroneously think, oh, I signed that waiver, so I can't do anything. But if you get injured because of defective equipment or because the people running the show screwed up, for example, then that waiver is worthless.

Note, however, that there is such a thing as consensual behavior. A boxer can't successfully sue another boxer for assault and battery, for example, when he gets knocked out by a swift uppercut in the ring. But you don't need a waiver for that, anyway.

[Philistine]

Originally Posted by Epee_Pox

Dirty secret, but liability waivers are legally unenforceable, regardless of how old you are. No court will enforce a waiver of your right to sue when injured by the negligence of another. And the fact that they are not a negotiated agreement, but rather a compulsory formality, also renders them less than useful should the event organizers get sued.

These forms are used everywhere, however, because they really do reduce the number of lawsuits. People erroneously think, oh, I signed that waiver, so I can't do anything. But if you get injured because of defective equipment or because the people running the show screwed up, for example, then that waiver is worthless.
{snip}

This is not necessarily true.

It varies a great deal by state. Some states treat them very stringently, some require certain language be present, and some states treat them pretty broadly.

While it is true (that depending on the state, the activity and the circumstances) a waiver may or may not be valid--it is most decidedly not true that liability waivers never have any legal effect.

--Philistine

[peet]

...and in the end, the legal validity of the waiver is mostly irrelevant to our current dilemma. It's not so much that the USFA is hoping to survive a lawsuit, but that the insurance company will refuse all coverage if a competitor/parent did not sign a waiver.

but i'm sure all of this has been said before...

-p

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

(Why don't more people read it and then know what was printed in it? There's a reason the USFA bothers to send it out to every member four times a year, there's a ton of useful information there)

most of the people i know stare at the attractive fencers instead..... : )

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint

most of the people i know stare at the attractive fencers instead..... : )

I would, but I've never found any.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

*sends you to search the watercooler for this thread, so we don't have to create one, have it sent to water cooler, and then have the same people brought up every time*

*and then sticks out my tongue, in a big grin....*

[Swordmaster]

Still haven't heard from the USFA on the subject...But we sure got a lot of defensive language from ol'Peet.
How about it MM where do you really stand on the issue?

[silentoutcry]

how come with FRED a vast majority of the tourneys and events are in the west. I didnt see one event in the east. There wasnt one even within 6 hours of me. How am I supposed to find a tournment with a program like that?

[Schiavona]

Originally Posted by Swordmaster

But we sure got a lot of defensive language from ol'Peet.

Anybody else think Peet's post was 'defensive'?

I thought he addressed points brought up on this thread in an informative manner........

Is it just me, or does Swordmaster seem a trifle hostile to Peet and FRED?

[dberke]

Originally Posted by silentoutcry

how come with FRED a vast majority of the tourneys and events are in the west. I didnt see one event in the east. There wasnt one even within 6 hours of me. How am I supposed to find a tournment with a program like that?

Tournaments on FRED are set up by local tournament organizers. If you don't see a tournament on there that is near you, it's because the organizers in your area aren't using FRED. In many cases it may be because they simply aren't aware of it... in which case you simply should bring it to their attention.

One great benefit of using FRED is that it encourages better turnouts at tournaments. Here in the Pacific Northwest, ALL tournaments are announced on FRED and the announcement goes to fencers in Washington, Oregon, and Vancouver (British Columbia). The ability to see how many are pre-registered on FRED helps when considering if it's worth driving out of town to fence. That way we no longer drive three hours only to find the event is 8 people (and 3 of them drove down with you).

Also, speaking as someone who organizes division tournaments, seeing the number of pre-registrations grow the week before the tournament helps us determine how many referees, strips, etc. we need to plan for. That makes things run smoother, which in turn makes for happier fencers.

Dan

[Craig]

Peet - Thanks for taking the time to come on over and post. If you have a few features that have been requested - send them over to me and I'll post a poll here and you can see which way the wind is blowing.

Craig

Originally Posted by peet

Hi folks-

[oiuyt]

It's a chicken-egg problem. Using AskFred makes a lot of sense if the fencers will check it and pre-reg on it. It only makes sense to check it if local events are listed. When we were running our tournament last spring we used it successfully. Next year when we again run our event (barring venue problems as with this year) we again plan to. As more people in a given area get used to using it more organizers will include more events and more fencers will check it. As more fencers start to use it more organizers will list their events, etc. Because it started in the Northwest that's where the coverage is best. It's been expanding even over the past year and a half or so that I've paid any attention to it. Get your local division to upload your calendar each year. Then get the neighboring divisions to do so. Even if nothing else is used, just by having a single composite schedule that way you're likely to get more cross-divisional fencing which is good for everyone.

-B :)

[hpfencing]

We are using askfred to help run the High Plains Open on June 5th and 6th. There are a few other programs out there but they don't run as smooth and are not as user friendly.

The waivers could be done at the event or faxed in seperately.

I believe you can add a link to ask fred that would allow fencers to print off a form and fax, mail or bring it with them.

Waivers should not be an issue.

As someone who runs tournaments I recommend everyone check out ask fred.

[Swordmaster]

Schiavona,
I'm sorry I thought this was an open forum were some one could post what they think about topics. I must be mistaken. This is the second time today I have been shot at.
FYI,
Fred has lost data - in the past.
Fred has been changed by those other than the tournament organizers - in the past.
Fred is still open to those 67 users from God know were, to look at private information.
Fred still does not interface well with anyother program other than Fencing Time.
It is good that you can now receive payment online, but many people do not use Paypal. It would make more sense to use a full e-commerce solution.
It is good that Peet has an open mind about these short coming and has entered into a dialog with the USFA, nobody else is.
I am not attempting to shut them down, I just want people to be aware of what they are using and the holes that it has. People can make up their own minds based on all the facts, not just those that agree with everyone else.
I do hope that sometime in the future the USFA does adopt an online registration system, not only for tournaments but for membership also. I just don't see it happening in the near future with this or anyother product.

Isn't this service being charged for now? Just wondering.

[Schiavona]

Originally Posted by Swordmaster

Schiavona,
I'm sorry I thought this was an open forum were some one could post what they think about topics. I must be mistaken. This is the second time today I have been shot at.

No, you weren't mistaken. I just commented on what I thought was the emotional content of your posts

Your last post was VERY informative about the downside of FRED. Thank you!
I, myself, hate PayPal for many reasons-some political!

I feel that FRED's main benefit to fencers is the ablity to see who's going to a tournament. I believe that has expanded the size of tournaments listed on FRED. This may be happening to the High Plains Open.

Your points are very valid and I believe that Peet won't ignore them.

[peet]

Hi there folks-

Just to clarify:

To my knowledge, FRED has not "lost" data. there have been occasional errors in a record or two, but they have been recitfied. I have weekly backup dumps of the database, so even in the event of a catastrophic hardware failure, loss would be limited.

AFAIK, No tournament organizer has reported that their tournament was changed by an unauthorized user. Is there an example of this that I am forgetting?

FRED continues to be a free service. I am contemplating future ways to defray the server costs (maybe even make a few bucks), but always in a way that would not at all discourage people from using the service.

Some of Swordmaster's other points were already discussed in my other post (data privacy, paypal, Fencing Time, etc), so i'll avoid repeating myself here.

Thanks everyone for your support while FRED grows!

-p

[Swordmaster]

Originally Posted by peet

To my knowledge, FRED has not "lost" data. there have been occasional errors in a record or two, but they have been recitfied. I have weekly backup dumps of the database, so even in the event of a catastrophic hardware failure, loss would be limited.
AFAIK, No tournament organizer has reported that their tournament was changed by an unauthorized user. Is there an example of this that I am forgetting?

At the risk of sounding like a real nay sayer,
I must protest these inaccuracies. The CCO was plagued by dropped data, as report, 12 fencers showed up that swore they had pre-registered and their registration was no where to be found.
As far as "unauthorized users" making changes, there are no specific examples because as an organizer it is impossible to tell "who" made the changes. But I can tell you this, any user can go in and change his/her own information at anytime, including ratings, clubs, and gender. So, if someone has access to someone elses account they can reek havok on not only that fencer but the orgainizers who must then try to get the correct information at sometimes the last minute. These changes have been reported in this past season.
The security holes must be addressed soon if this online registration is to be considered an accurate means of storing and using this data.

On an other note,
I agree that the ability of fencers to see who is registered for an event can increase the size of an event. There are very easy ways an organizer can do this who has access to a website and knowlege of Frontpage or a simular website editing tool. Plus, it can be absolutely secure because only the person editing the website has access to the database.
I know that there are probably plenty of web-heads out there that are capable of helping an orgainizer out in this regard.
The one great thing that you loose by not using a very well know (at least in the western and southern sections) webbased database management system is the publicity to the rest of the fencing community. But if you take a page from Matt Hites book, you should