Kids Traveling W or W/O parents

[Mo]

This is from Eva: Also, most of the kids travel without parents. Not because the parents aren't interested, but it means one or two more competitions per season they can afford to send their kids to. This does mean they can trust the club and the coaches, but that is another thread...

So here is another thread.
What are your thoughts?
IMO kid's safety and well being far out weigh the cost of sending a kid to a competition without a parent. It is not an issue of trusting the coaches or club, it is more an issue of what to risk for a sport.
World Champion or possible disaster? If it came down to the choice, my kid would not go.

[a517dogg]

depends on age, how mature your kid is, and yes how much you trust the club, coaches, his teammates, and your kid himself. my parents never let me travel without them until i reached college, which i felt was silly once i had learned the ropes of competition on my own. however it was deffinitely useful to have them there when i was still learning how NACs worked. also, at any given NAC there will be at least one set of parents i could get help from if i needed to, as well as any of the BFC coaches. if your kid doesn't have such a great support network i can understand your reticence to send him out on his own.

[The0ne]

I have gone to all my national tournaments without my parents. The main reason is I pay for all my stuff myself, and they can't aford to go. I have no problem with it, I never felt that my safety was ever even close to being jeopordized. The only thing I was worrying about was missing a flight! To one NAC I went to neither my coach or any teammates went, so that was really on my own.

[Inquartata]

Unspoken here is another question: "Is a child really demonstrably safer with a parent accompanying them than when alone?" That's a question which has a lot of complex aspects---it isn't amenable to a simple "yes" or "no", I think...

[Artisan]

Originally Posted by Mo

[B
So here is another thread.
What are your thoughts?
IMO kid's safety and well being far out weigh the cost of sending a kid to a competition without a parent. It is not an issue of trusting the coaches or club, it is more an issue of what to risk for a sport.
World Champion or possible disaster? If it came down to the choice, my kid would not go.

You can't address this without considering the kid - their age, their maturity and level of responsibility. At our club, kids under 16 without parents are required to travel with a coach. Regardless of safety and "what if" paranoia, a too young kid is not apt to do well at a big competition if they are alone with no support or assistance - there's too much to do, think of and keep track of...

[Fencing Mom]

""Is a child really demonstrably safer with a parent accompanying them than when alone?"

Yes - particularly preteens and young teens. The danger of traveling and being alone at tournaments is not the threat of plane hijacking or child abduction. The greatest danger, at least in the US, is the drinking and sex that goes on after the tournaments. If you are with your kid, you can set a curfew for when he or she has to be back in your hotel room. Or you can keep tabs with a cell phone. But if you aren't there, even the best of kids can be tempted with something he or she is just not mature enough to handle. Five years ago, when my kid first started going to national tournaments, I was very impressed with what I saw - nice, intelligent, well-behaved kids. That still is true, but what I didn't see then is how very small and close the community of teen fencers actually is. They all know each other very well - they instant message and talk to each other and about each other on cell phones daily. They are into each other's busines and sometimes into each other's beds. For anyone who hasn't looked at fencingsucks.com, hold your nose and take a look. Of course the posters are often bragging, but there is also a no-holds-barred truth there too.

I can't think of a better activity for a kid than fencing. But it is not a silver bullet for producing mature kids. That's what parenting does. My son is graduating from high school this year. Last year he did about half of his tournaments alone. This year, I only traveled to one on the west coast and drove to another to watch him fence and then I left. I don't interfere with his decision-making now, but when he was younger I was at the tournaments to protect him from bad decision-making.

As for those kids traveling internationally without parents - I'll say a mother's prayer of protection for them.

[hpfencing]

Every situation is different.

As a coach I have no problem taking a studnet that is easy maintance with me to an event. There are other students that I will insist that there parents go.

Part of the situation is based on the relationship between the coach (or other adult taking the student) and the family.

1. Is the person trusted.
2. Can the student be trusted with that person.
3. Is there a personality confilct or probelm with the two spending a lot of time together.

ANother big issue is hotel rooms. In any circumstance I think it is BAD to stick a student in a room alone. They need supervision or at least other students in the room.

[Inquartata]

No offense, but is that a safety issue or one of control?

Your child faces precisely the same temptations, or "perils", every time he or she goes off to school or to a friend's house, no? Yet how many parents home school or chaperone all of these journeys as a "safety measure"? Maybe it's just the distance involved?

[sabreklutz]

Pesonaly I prefer to travel w/o my parents, they make me nervous fencing and we fight with eatchother in any tense situation (fencing, traveling) adding unneeded stress for both of us.

[Mo]

Originally Posted by sabreklutz

Pesonaly I prefer to travel w/o my parents, they make me nervous fencing and we fight with eatchother in any tense situation (fencing, traveling) adding unneeded stress for both of us.

How old are you? Where are you traveling?

[Mo]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

No offense, but is that a safety issue or one of control?

Your child faces precisely the same temptations, or "perils", every time he or she goes off to school or to a friend's house, no? Yet how many parents home school or chaperone all of these journeys as a "safety measure"? Maybe it's just the distance involved?

It is not an issue of control and the child does not face the same temptations and perils as they do on a daily basis.

When a kid is in a strange town, they are sort of helpless. When they are in a strange town in Europe and do not speak the language it is even worse.

In a daily situation like school they are not rooming with people their own age with keys to hotel rooms and a gang mentality.

Kids in normal surroundings can cope. There are all kinds of new situations that 14-17 year olds do not understand. Once a fencer is college aged, the situation changes. Even college aged kids can want their parents with them. The girls especially seem to want their moms.

I would say the majority of fencing kids from this country do not have any street smarts. They live somewhat pampered, sheltered lives. They think they know everything. When there is a parent around to second guess some of the unwise decisions or help them subvert pressure caused by vengeful teammates, a life long disaster can be avoided.

The more trips I go on with my kids, the more I know that it would take some spectacularly special chaperones to allow them to go anywhere without my hub or me. No one cares about the kids like a parent. (There are always exceptions but they are few and far between.)

Always better to be safe than sorry. ALWAYS....

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Fencing Mom

""Is a child really demonstrably safer with a parent accompanying them than when alone?"

Yes - particularly preteens and young teens. The danger of traveling and being alone at tournaments is not the threat of plane hijacking or child abduction. The greatest danger, at least in the US, is the drinking and sex that goes on after the tournaments.
....

i hate to single this out, but this is kind of absurd
if you're worried about your teen/young adult topping off a long hard day of fencing with drinking and sex, i have sad news to break to you.
firstly, i think you're probably a little hypersensitive, but thats a different argument alltogether.
secondly, if this is your only problem on this subject, i don't find it to be a very valid reason inasmuch as if your worries are valid, your child will be doing it at home behind your very back anyway and i find no point in stopping it for one expensive instance instead of at home. people don't suddenly decide to change their social ideals because they're at a fencing tournament. if your worries are not valid, then you have nothing to worry about and thusly should allow the child to go.


edited to add my point that i'm not saying 12 year olds should be allowed to run free. i think the approximate maturation age for something like this (a group trip, mind you) would be in the area of 16ish, depending on the child and the group he/she is going with.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

at local tournaments, when my parents come, they don't take care of/help me--- i take care of/help them. I find them and tell them when/where my bouts are, afterwards i explain to them what happened (including if i won and by how much), i explain to them the format of the tournament(always the same), tell them where the bathroom is, etc etc etc...

This was fine my freshman year, when i was just starting fencing.

It's now senior year, it's not fine anymore.

If i asked my dad to get an extra body cord from my bag, i would have to explain to him where i put my bag, where i might keep body cords in my bag, and finally, what a body cord is.

It's nice to find that my parents support me. It's nice that they (occationally) make a slight effort.

I'm paying for Nationals out of my own pocket (if i chose to go). Considering i only work 6 weeks out of the summer (and nationals would cut one of those weeks), this is a significant thing for me.

I'm going to college next year. While I'm still a minor, it makes no sense to have my parents go. They don't think Nationals is important enough to offer to pay for any of it, why would they want to go as well? I would not only have to get situated myself, but I'd also have to help them. They don't provide anything when i'm with them during the actual time when i'm fencing. Not even a "stay hydrated" or a "do you want me to get your coach"....

For me, dragging my parents to a national even doesn't make ANY sense, and dragging them to local events doesn't make much more sense.....

It depends on the kid. I'm a very good example of "let the kid go alone!!!"

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Originally Posted by Fencing Mom

The greatest danger, at least in the US, is the drinking and sex that goes on after the tournaments.

It's not limited to the US tournaments. Keep reading.

Originally Posted by noodle

i hate to single this out, but this is kind of absurd
if you're worried about your teen/young adult topping off a long hard day of fencing with drinking and sex, i have sad news to break to you.

Noodle, come back and give us an update when your 12-15 year old's name and alleged sexual habits show up on Fencingsucks, or when your daughter is being stalked by some the predatory miscreants found at the tournaments.

Example of a situation that drives parents crazy: at the Cadet/JR World Championships, much ado was made by the USFA about segregating the fencers from the parents attending...avowing that it was the USFA cadre's responsibility to take care of the kids, not the parent's. This was met with vocal opposition by some of the parents. There were at least two members of the men's team with long held reputations as opportunistic horn-dogs. There were also multiple bottles of alcohol in each competitor's room. The USFA was made aware of this, yet failed to remove the bottles. This may have led to an alcohol-related incident...it certainly led to adolescent bragging about alcohol consumption from the hotel fridges.

Additionally, many of the fencers never had a single bed check during the competition, and some of the fencers complained of constant hallway conversations, slamming doors and people running up and down the halls well after "curfew." (Nearly all the Americans were on a single floor).

Let's remember that most of the female members of the US team were minors (as were many of the men). There was at least one alleged predation, and another unsuccessful attempt at an unwelcome tryst...aided and abetted by a female member of the squad who should have known better.

Where was the cadre during these events?

This was just one tournament...similar problems, or worse, have been noticed at other events. The events at the World Championships were particularly disturbing because the opportunities for parental oversight were forcibly curbed by the USFA itself.

[Fencing Mom]

Okay, let me state my opinion more clearly - I said preteens and young teens are safer with parents. I didn't say 17-18 year olds. The argument that you should not be shocked that kids get into bad situations on the road because, gee, they do it behind your back at home anyhow, is rather ...uh, immature ... and not particularly relevant, Noodle and Inquartata, but I'll address it. I said that young kids may find themselves in situations that they are not mature enough to handle. A young girl in a hotel room at two in the morning, with no adults around, is not the same thing as visiting friends at home. A young boy discovering the effects of one-too-many to drink in a strange city and state is definately more worrisome than if that kid experienced this with his friends at home. Do kids drink and have sex at home? Sure they do. Are there mature kids who would never find themselves in difficult situations? Sure there are. But if you are a parent, and Noodle and Inquartata, I would guess that you aren't, you would do everything to keep your kids safe from these situations as long as it is appropriate.

That said, I will say that I have never had the luxury of sending my kid off to an NAC with a club, coach, or chaperoned group. There just aren't that many fencers interested in that level of fencing from around here. Either we went with him or he went alone - all alone. Last year he started attending the NACs alone.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

There are also some clubs and coaches that actively discourage parents from attending out of town meets. I like to apply the principle of inverse proportions:

The more adamant a club or coach is about having the fencer travel alone with the team, the less willing I am to acquiesce. I've known coaches that I would never in a million years allow to be in control and alone with a girl child away from parental eyes.

Then there's the principle of adequate supervision. Again, we're talking 10-16 year olds or so. If you go to many of the NAC-International meets, you'll notice that the coaches often meet up with other coaches or officials and disappear to go discuss FIE issues or global warming or some weighty matter. They're NOT doing bed checks. Some clubs appoint a chaperone or kid supervisor. If these guardians are out to dinner with other folks, or sitting in a bar drinking all night (trust me, it happens) while sending your kids out into a strange town...even in industrial European cities by themselves, with no adult along to scrounge up dinner, then your kid is not being taken care of properly.

After you've seen a couple of these instances, you'll begin to understand the knee-jerk reaction some of us have to just loading our younger kids on an airplane and waving goodbye.

[noodle]

i had written a novel in response to this, but i now feel that i can summarize my feelings much more concisely.

i understand the worries of a parent. i understand all of the things that can go wrong. i understand the things that do go wrong with other people. but there's a point in time where you can't shelter your children anymore. a weekend fencing trip in a group is a good taste of life for those that are mature and ready. you need to have a little faith in your own parenting skills and what you've taught your child. some will make a mistake. have you never made a mistake before at that age?

i'm of course, not counting kids who are too young, or downwright immature (or, in some cases, traveling in a group with immature kids). i, myself, have taken weekend or longer trips alone or with my friends so many times since i was 15 that i can't remember the vast majority of them. but neither my friends nor i encountered any of the described perils and i can't say that my friends at the time or now are absolute angels.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Mo

It is not an issue of control and the child does not face the same temptations and perils as they do on a daily basis.

To be sure; I'd expect the latter to be worse on a daily basis, with peers they are around constantly and who can pressure them day after day and month after month instead of for a day or two...

I remember being that age. I suspect that you do, too. We know what sort of situations we might have or even did get into in our own home towns, no? I can't see how that would be worsened by being in a hotel with people coming and going instead of at a friend's house with their parents out, or even in a parked car somewhere.

Now, the predator part I can definitely understand. Though not a parent even I have heard unsavory things about some adult fencers and, worse, coaches. But are there no predators elsewhere? Not in schools? Not in churches, even? This too is an issue 24-7, and yet most parents trust their kids to the public schools every day, do they not?

In a daily situation like school they are not rooming with people their own age with keys to hotel rooms and a gang mentality.


I would say the majority of fencing kids from this country do not have any street smarts. They live somewhat pampered, sheltered lives. They think they know everything. When there is a parent around to second guess some of the unwise decisions or help them subvert pressure caused by vengeful teammates, a life long disaster can be avoided.

Well, I'd tend to agree for the most part---even though I wonder if for many kids having a parent "second guess" their decisions only tends to make the decision more attractive to them.

But---"gang mentality"? "Vengeful teammates"? Egad, Mo, where is your club, Compton? East L.A? Remind me never to stop in and fence with you guys!

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Fencing Mom

The argument that you should not be shocked that kids get into bad situations on the road because, gee, they do it behind your back at home anyhow, is rather ...uh, immature

I'm sensing that you fervently hope this is so, but perhaps do not in your heart of hearts quite believe it is...because you, too, were once a "young teen"...and proverbially, kids today are even more subject to pressures than we were in our time.

I said that young kids may find themselves in situations that they are not mature enough to handle.

This applies 24 hours a day, every day, does it not? I still don't see how it's exacerbated by being 200 miles from you and alone with a shady boy or ne'er-do-well friends instead of 20 miles...

A young girl in a hotel room at two in the morning, with no adults around, is not the same thing as visiting friends at home. A young boy discovering the effects of one-too-many to drink in a strange city and state is definately more worrisome than if that kid experienced this with his friends at home.

I cannot speak to the first, never having been a young girl , but as to the second I have been a young boy and even with the perspective of a now-grown man I can tell you that I do not see the difference which seems to loom so large to you. "Friends" can be worse companions than strangers at times. It may indeed be more "worrisome" to you, but that's not the same thing as being objectively more dangerous. People with kids speak of how being a parent changes their outlooks, and I can well believe it, but it's the outlook, not reality, which changes...

In all candour I have no very great investment in whether parents do or do not travel with their kids, because as you say I have none myself. I am only saying that from outside, dispassionately, perhaps I can see the forest a bit more readily than those intently focused on their own trees---and that from that perspective it looks as though you magnify the dangers a bit too greatly. They're fencing tournaments, after all, not spring break bacchanals.