Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

Mo · 05-08-2004, 02:22 PM

My hub and I were discussing the costs of fencing. (this involved the throwing and breaking of many dishes, but that's beside the point!)

We were doing a "wonder what happened to?" discussion and came to the conclusion that a lot of what makes a fencer successful is some very solid financial backing. If a fencer is not getting the results to make cadet and junior teams, they often decide it is too expensive to continue competing.

To be in the top 16 or top 8 of the rankings requires that a fencer attend a substantial amount of meets. In some cases, you can look at the rankings of Y14 fencers and see them lower in Y14 than Cadet and Junior. Why? They can't afford to go to the lower ranked events that "don't count for anything" towards National Team selection.

To make a World Team, a fencer almost MUST attend the total number of meets designated by the USFA. To make the cadet team there are two cadet meets designated, with only one giving points. In addition, most of the fencers that made this year's US National Cadet Team also had to attend most or all of the designated Junior World Cup competitions. In Junior, there are four competitions and in Senior four competitions. The cost becomes overwhelming for the average income family.

If a young fencer really wants to make a world team, they have to place well in four domestic meets (at least $1500+ each meet for the kid and mom or dad) and five world competitions ($2000+ each meet for fencer and parent). To make an Olympic team the family either must have plenty of money or the financial backing of the Peter Westbrooke Foundation.

Fencing has a very high attrition rate. We've seen so many kids start out and then drop out due to the necessity of expensive travel for fencers to succeed. A young fencer has to hedge their bets. Even if they win or place very high in a couple world cups, they still have to keep going to them to stay in the pack. Kids get sick, worn out, burned out and just plain crabby to keep working on the team goal. Their childhood is a blur of airports. I personally know a bunch of kids who have gone to Italy 5-6 times and never had time to stop and see the Vatican or Coliseum in Rome.

If fencing wants to lose the elitist reputation, I have no idea how that will ever happen because you gotta have sooo much money to do it.

Purple Fencer · 05-08-2004, 02:31 PM

No differant that any other high end- achievers in other sports...the differance is fencing already has the eletist image where swimming or ice skating don't -- at least not to the same level.

Mo · 05-08-2004, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

No differant that any other high end- achievers in other sports...the differance is fencing already has the eletist image where swimming or ice skating don't -- at least not to the same level.

Sam,
Not really, there are so many more swimming and iceskating competitions to keep a kid busy. A swimmer can swim in meets until they make national teams and never have to leave the country.
Ice skaters usually have meets every weekend some place or another. For fencing in the US and usually regionally. You MUST go to the meets that count.
The Regional Youth Competitions are a step in the right direction but fencing requires so much financial support very early on.

The0ne · 05-08-2004, 02:57 PM

As one of those fencers trying to get into the top 16 of the national rankings (the top 8 would be nice though!! =) Yeah, the cost is huge. I pay jsut about all of it myself, work all summer to make money to cover fencing. Next year I estimate that I'll spend three quarters of my savings on going to competitions. . . It gets to be kind of a drag!

Army Fencer · 05-08-2004, 03:10 PM

Yes, fencing is a very expensive sport. I'm in the red every month because of it. I'm even planning to move out of my one bedroom apartment to a room-for-rent further away from school to pay for my expenses.

I have an attainable goal to help with the problem. I'm trying to get into the World Class Althete Program (WCAP). The WCAP helps military athletes get to the Olympics. I recently made the inquiries and got the paperwork going to start a Army WCAP in fencing. I can apply in January. If I make the program, they will pay for all things fencing. Right now, Seth Kelsey is in the WCAP program for the Air Force, and he's training at the NYAC as his job in the military.

I'm going to as many national tournaments as I can right now. If I do well, I can get into the program. I am also making an investment into getting into the WCAP by going to the Cuba World Cup. It costs quite a bit, but I'll make it up in the long run.

I don't have an answer for the elitism question. I'm struggling with the bills I have to pay and that's all I know.

Inquartata · 05-08-2004, 03:49 PM

Yes, it's a perennial problem, in sports as in other walks of life. Can we really say that so-and-so is "the best", or only "the best of those who could afford to compete"? I don't know what's to be done about it, either.

Artisan · 05-08-2004, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Yes, it's a perennial problem, in sports as in other walks of life. Can we really say that so-and-so is "the best", or only "the best of those who could afford to compete"? I don't know what's to be done about it, either.

Can't do anythng about it... The underlying presumption is that somehow things should be fair. Life is not fair - oh how cliche. I suppose there could be categories like: "the best of those who could afford to compete, found the right coach, made the correct decisions, were born with the right genes and had the drive to stick with it."

Capt. Slo-mo · 05-08-2004, 04:38 PM

I've heard urban sports legends that ice skating and equestrian competitions are the two most expensive sports in which kids can rise to international competitive levels.

Here's a BB note from the US Figure Skating site about the cost of skating:

Subject: How much does it cost to be skater?

Tara (Lipinski) and her family were on 20/20 when Tara was 12 and they said it cost them $58,000 a year.

Also, Sasha (Cohen) answered some questions in one of her journals about the costs of traveling..if you want to look it up it is in the Nov 7, 2003 entry...but here is the part I am talking about:

Mostly the travel is set up between the USFSA and my mom. My mom will let Tatiana know what days we need to be at a competition. My mom will call and book the flights and make the accommodations. The USFSA will pay for the hotel during the competition and at least one night before the practices start. The USFSA does pay for airfare. We fly coach, not first class. I wish! We do get meals at the competition and we usually get a per diem for meals per day.

There are several fencers at the US Team level who have likely approached the $50K level per year for training, travel and competition, as well. It does seem the US Figure Skating folks pay for more of the "mandatory" international meets than the USFA does, but that's probably a direct result of the benefits of sponsorship associations with American companies.

Another point to consider: There are thousands of girls skating...so it takes many years of competing to be launched into big time international competition. A good young fencer can be launched into stratospheric competition costs fairly quickly, without the entrenched support mechanisms that figure skating's best enjoy.

Link14 · 05-08-2004, 05:08 PM

My youngest daughter skates and even though she's only approaching the mid-levels (just qualified Juvenile) the costs are a little staggering. Between skating 6 days a week, two lessons a week, several costumes a year, and one pair of skates a year the costs run in the $8-$10K per year range. We haven't had to do much flying yet to competitions but I can see that coming. Oh well, she loves it so I just have to sit back for a while and wait 'til I get both the kids through college, then get back into fencing.

But sometimes when I think of the sabre kit I could buy for what one pair of skates cost......

germanguy · 05-08-2004, 05:56 PM

.....

Aeric · 05-08-2004, 07:29 PM

I think access to the location with coaches and facilities is more important than money. If you can't travel to a good club several times per week, then you won't go anywhere because of the skill level. I find that good clubs often make it possible to go to large competitions with a group, and pay less for transportation.

mlr2fence · 05-08-2004, 07:54 PM

A big difference between fencing and some other sports is that a sport like Track, Swimming, Figure Skating, etc. are solo events. (the athlete competes alone--they don't need another person). One can go to just local (driving distance) events to get the experience but a fencer needs to travel, usually to ever increasingly longer distances, to tournaments to encounter a variety of opponents for experience. Its kinda hard to fence against oneself but a runner can race against the clock. They don't need another person with a different style to 'practice' with. They can train and measure their improvement on their own. Technically, if a runner doesn't have to deal with 'nerves' they would only have to go to a qualifing meet to make the time to be eligible to attend the Olympic Trials. This means that as a fencer moves up the competitive ladder they have to travel to where other fencers are for the experience and the points. Travel seems to be what really eats up the $$$.

germanguy · 05-09-2004, 02:34 PM

.....

pacer · 05-09-2004, 08:22 PM

We've run into the cost factor with our 14 year old. The first 2 years he was fencing we didn't understand the whole national points thing didn't worry about it. We went to local competitions. Fortunately my son had fun and occassionally won - but they were too small to award any points or classifications. Now that we've figured out the points - we can't afford to let him go where he wants. Other kids at our club who have been fencing less time, and whom he regularly can beat, have parents who can can afford to go to these competitions (whether on their own ticket or on frequent flier miles their employer doesn't require they hand in) These kids are getting their rankings. I can tell it bothers him sometimes - that's usually when he won't go to the kids classes and asks to fence the adults. He now wants to go to summer camp at a different club - is it worth it?

mlr2fence · 05-09-2004, 10:41 PM

I agree, German guy, that a top-notch coach is also essential. But one cannot fence in a vacuum--the other half of the equation is top-notch competition. How far would a fencer get if they only fenced a handful of other fencers in addition to training with their coach? They need to bout--the more the better.

Eva1187 · 05-10-2004, 02:32 AM

The US is already a world force in swimming and skating to name a couple, and so with that level available in the US, and the numbers competing here, that is a lot less international and long distance travel that can be put off til later.

The US is coming on pretty strong in the fencing world, but those serious about really 'being the best' have to go where the strong competition is. Cha-ching.

Individual sports are a nightmare to fundraise for. I know a couple of kids in my area who fence competitively thanks to the accumulated support of grandparents and a couple of aunts and uncles. Also, most of the kids travel without parents. Not because the parents aren't interested, but it means one or two more competitions per season they can afford to send their kids to. This does mean they can trust the club and the coaches, but that is another thread...

Victor · 05-10-2004, 08:20 AM

It's one of the reasons I put on a masked costume (I like to call it a "uniform") and fight crime in my metroplex. Sure, I bring down the bad guys with my rapier wit, but when the police aren't looking I also help myself to a share of the crooks' ill-gotten gains. I figure it's part of the payment for professional expenses involved with protecting the city, and drugs/weapons/prostitution money might as well be put to some good cause like helping a struggling fencer achieve Olympic recognition for his country.

Maeve_Mari · 05-10-2004, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Link14

My youngest daughter skates and even though she's only approaching the mid-levels (just qualified Juvenile) the costs are a little staggering. Between skating 6 days a week, two lessons a week, several costumes a year, and one pair of skates a year the costs run in the $8-$10K per year range. We haven't had to do much flying yet to competitions but I can see that coming. Oh well, she loves it so I just have to sit back for a while and wait 'til I get both the kids through college, then get back into fencing.

But sometimes when I think of the sabre kit I could buy for what one pair of skates cost......

I read your note wrong and thought you said that one pair of skates cost $8-$10K per year! I was just about to quit my job and get into the skate supply business!! Thinking about it, and I have a neighbor with a skating daughter so I've heard the horror stories of time and money involved, it still might be a good business to be in!

grphiw · 05-10-2004, 03:09 PM

Personally I think that fencing is not expensive because of competitions, but more in the sense of equipment. All sports have competitions, and they all add up. It's just that we see more low level teams competing to be big fish in small ponds. If one were to, say, have a kid who was going for the American National Boy's Team (or whatever you call it), then yes, it would be expensive.

Equipment, on the other hand, is a real killer, and in fencing, there's a lot. A maraging epee blade, for example, costs at least 115 dollars, plus shipping. There are not very many fencing stores near anybody. They all ship. In terms of buying new equipment, I spend anywhere from 250-350 dollars a year, replacing and maintaing weapons. I don't know what the norm is, but it really gets expensive after a few years. Equipment kills, is all I can say.

Army Fencer · 05-10-2004, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grphiw

In terms of buying new equipment, I spend anywhere from 250-350 dollars a year, replacing and maintaing weapons. I don't know what the norm is, but it really gets expensive after a few years. Equipment kills, is all I can say.

Only $250-350!! I wish. I've spent more than three that since December!!

If the equipment kills, the travel murders. Fencing at a national level is horrible on the wallet, whether you fence Y-14, Senior, or Vets. I would argue that it's probably worse for Junior and Cadet fencers, who have to fence both at their age group and the ones about them.

Of course, if you want to get any better, you have to start fencing at World Cups and competing internationally. As I mentioned before, I'm going to my first WC soon. I've neither touched foreign soil, nor have I gotten approval from the State Department to go, and I have already spent over $900.