Money Makes the Fencer

[sabreman]

I wonder how these 20K $ wonder kids would make it in a system like the Westbrook Foundation?

Also 20 years ago the East Block fencing machine was still in operation. Many of those programs today are a shadow of their past because of lack of funding. Just look at the results from the NYC WCs from that time (1980 - 1992) to see how great those East Block mens sabre teams were (Soviet Union, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Romania, Cuba (will include them because that is where many of them trained). The Soviet Union had such great fencing system that they could bring a total unknown (outside of their system) to a World Championship or Olympics and they would be a threat to win. LOL!

[Windsor]

Elite fencing is expensive, elite competiton is expensive, elite ambitions are expensive.

Intrinsically, fencing is not an outrageously expensive sport. However, it is more expensive than many. From what I've read, that is all Chris was trying to say. And I believe its completely correct.

Given initial equipment costs and club dues fencing is more than say, baseball or football or soccer or swimming. But how much more expensive depends on your local club(s). From the major clubs in my area, it is very possible to fence regularly with club gear that is reasonably clean and working. Its not an incredibly expensive sport, it doesn't need an elitist budget to enjoy it. To me this topic is pretty...shall I say self-evident? For a great majority of the sports, the elite level is both hard to reach and expensive to reach, the international level is generally attained only with a strong financial investment.

I would disagree with the concept that to be at an elite level requires the amounts of money that fencing does, but thats topic for another thread and forum.

From my own personal experiences, fencing starts out more expensive than mainstream sports, but can be kept at a pretty reasonable level at the middle level. By that I mean, in my section, (not a huge fencing hub) I know there are enough local competitions around to keep a middle level (C-B) fencer busy and with enough goals that doesn't require a massive amount of money. I might be completely off here, but to fence and be at the top locally, you need to take pay your dues $600 + jacket $120 + knickers $60+ mask $150 +
3 weapons (FIE foil) $290+ 3 body cords $65 + 15 local tournaments $300 + weekly lesson from a competent coach = $2705. Plus couple trips to SN or a NAC? $800 for each trip= $4305 for a year. Really thats a rough estimate for everything, but I think its all within reason. Also based only on personal experience and my local costs.

Then, jacket knickers mask weapons body cords shouldn't need to be replaced every single year, the jacket and knicker might need to, if your body shape is changing yearly...

Thats a pretty moderate level of competition (I think) and it doesn't strike me as very expsensive. Compare to weekly private piano lessons every week at $45 a lesson from a teacher that doesn't have every student headed for Julliard= $2520. Not including intial investment in the piano $2k-$60k.

So thats at the middle level of competition, compared to a piano student who isn't necessarily a prodigy. To me thats a very fair comparison and the costs appear to be pretty manageable. Read again, thats at the middle level of competition, AND based mostly on personal experience. The numbers for your equipment might be more expensive, less expensive based on your area and proficiency at breaking blades...

At the elite level I have absolutely no experience and could only venture to guess that its PROBABLY very expensive, but not any more so than other less than mainstream sports?

So its a fairly expensive hobby but not more so than a devotion to music at a similar level when in the middle. At the bottom its probably more expensive, and at the top level its probably more expensive.

[The0ne]

The example you picked to compare fencing to (piano playing) is not a sport, and is a very expensive occupation. If you look at other sports such as basketball, soccer, running, and lacrosse, they are cheaper at all levels than fencing. I ran on the varsity track team at a local high-school, and I had to invest only about $150 a year. While I know that running is the cheapest sport there is, that price is all that is required to compete at a middle level.

[sabreman]

There is a potential big time payoff in being a great piano player. Same with mens ice hockey, figure skating, soccer, ect. This doesn't apply to fencing. In fencing all you can hope for are medals at the World level and a college scholarship. If you win an Olympic gold medal you might be able to get on the speakers circut and get some sponsorship deal. Peter Westbrook has gotten about as much as anyone out of the sport but his personal story is very unique.

If your kid is so talented why doesn't your club pay his or her way to the competitions? I know the coaches that run or work at these elite clubs are there to make money. They aren't doing it for free. When they go to these competitions who pays their way? Most of them came from systems (former East Block) were everything was taken care off if you were at the elite level.

[Peach]

Originally Posted by sabreman

If your kid is so talented why doesn't your club pay his or her way to the competitions? I know the coaches that run or work at these elite clubs are there to make money. They aren't doing it for free. When they go to these competitions who pays their way? Most of them came from systems (former East Block) were everything was taken care off if you were at the elite level.

You're assuming the coaches have some outside source of money. The elite coaches in Eastern Bloc (and other) countries were paid by their government, as were their athletes. In the US, these coaches make their money by charging fees to their students. In the US, in most cases, athletes have to pay for their coach's expenses if he or she travels with them, in addition to their own.

[sabreman]

I assume the coaches are pros and rely on their students to pay their way to the competitions. Do the Westbrook Foundation fencers have to pay as much out of their own pockets? Would they continue fencing if they had to? The bottom line is that many of kids that have their parents shelling out this big $ would have a hard time making it in that type of competitive situation especially on the mens side. Sorry if this puts certain people off but it is just the way I see it coming from my fencing background.

[Peach]

Ah--I see. You're using the Westbrook Foundation, which functions as a charitable organization, as your example. That's the exception rather than the rule. Are you suggesting that clubs which wish to support competitive fencers incorporate as 501(c)(3) corporations and solicit support for their world-class fencers? Would they offer such funding only to some of their fencers, or all? Or should clubs not go the charitable foundation route and simply allocate a portion of their fees to supporting their top athletes? What would the tax implications be for the clubs and for the athletes? How would they designate who gets the money and who doesn't--and how would they deal with the reaction of those who don't get funding? I don't think it's a bad idea per se, but it would take a lot of work.

[sabreman]

The Westbrook Foundation is a good example of how it can be done but I am not sure it has to be chartiable foundation. Look at AAU basketball where teams are funded by the shoe companies (Nike, Addidas, ect). Non of those kids pay a dime (many are actually being paid under the table) but it is super competitive situation to get on one of those teams. I think this also how some of the elite clubs in Europe work. Also the Fencers Club and Athletic Club has always given assistance to the top talent coming out of the NYC metro area (most from the NJ / NY High School programs -> see Westbrook, Lofton, Cottingham, ect on the sabre side). If you didn't make the grade you didn't get the assistance and either paid your own way or gave up the sport as many did after high school or college. The Westbrook Foundation has just brought it to another level.

[Windsor]

Originally Posted by The0ne

The example you picked to compare fencing to (piano playing) is not a sport, and is a very expensive occupation. If you look at other sports such as basketball, soccer, running, and lacrosse, they are cheaper at all levels than fencing. I ran on the varsity track team at a local high-school, and I had to invest only about $150 a year. While I know that running is the cheapest sport there is, that price is all that is required to compete at a middle level.

Hahah yeah...I realize that piano is not a sport?... I guess you're trying to say that its not a fair comparison, but I'd still say its a fair comparison because many people have to choose between investing their time and money into a musical path or sports path. I would say thats my way of putting things into perspective because so many people spend comparable amounts of money on music. Definitely track, soccer, basketball, football, rugby don't have nearly the same amounts of personal equipment as fencing but if you fenced at a highschool that had gear you could use, you wouldn't end up spending very much at all to compete at the high school level. Hopefully that makes sense, but in any case its a lot more complicated. Its just that I don't think

As to music being a lucrative career? Heh thats a good one, sure there's a great potential if you're an absolute prodigy but honestly I'd have to say a very limited number of musicians that have received any type of "pay off" than there are Olympic fencers. In both cases, none of them do it for money. No person in a right state of mind would go into music for the money, just as no one fences for money or status and anything like that. The driving motivation in both cases is a genuine passion for the instrument/sport.

And I digress...

[Maeve_Mari]

Originally Posted by Link14

I haven't heard of any skating money in colleges, and since she wants to be an orthopedic surgeon, my chances of her going to a school that had one would be fairly low anyways.

Expectations.....hmmm. We're pretty sure we're not Olympic bound, but she went to Regionals (our sectionals) last year and is hoping to go to Sectionals one day (one step below Nationals). I think our main motivation for her skating is that it teachs a great work ethic and gives her excellent excercise. You see very few out-of-shape skaters and most of them excel in school. Probably the same for younger fencers too.

The skating club does have several skaters that have gone one to the traveling skating shows. Most of them think it's a great experience and gives them a chance to travel.

I asked the question again this weekend here and got an answer that gave me more to consider too. I understand that my neighbor's kid will, in the next year or so have "enough hours" to start teaching/coaching. So, even as a championship has evaded her, she will be able to earn money, even as she picks a profession completely outside of skating, that she will always be able to do.

I thought it was interesting to consider that too. I had honestly wondered what happened to skaters after they missed championships, but were too young to go to the professional ice shows and tours.

[Cyranox11]

Originally Posted by Louweasel

Plus, Cyrano, I'm not sure that I like the implication in your post that I am "not taking it seriously" just because I have no goal to turn pro or travel the world to national competitions. I'm not somehow to be looked down on because I do this for fun, exercise (physical and mental) and to socialise, and because I may not be very good.
But maybe I'm being over-sensitive.

Hi

Apologies I did not mean to imply that you are not taking fencing seriously, I was saying that most fencers (as a group) replicate the conditions of a serious/high level competion far more closely than participants in other sports: for example when last did you see a local tennis (for example) competition with a 'cyclops' machine for footfaults, a net sensor, or even all the line judges you see at a major tennis competition?
Yet fencers will typically run even small local level competitions with highly sophisticated electrical scoring apparatus as a bare minimum, many expect metallic pistses etc as well. This is where the costs come in for fencing.
I can use cricket and rugby as additional points of comparison: they use television refs/third umpires at the highest/national level, but these are seldom used at even the highest level club and provincial games (at least in SA).

I can only compare prices of sports etc in SA.

In SA, fencing lessons are, as I said, about 1/2 the price of lessons in other sports: lessons cost around R250 per month for 2 x 20 minute lessons per week: club fees/subscriptions are included in this. Our compettion entry fees range from about R25 to R100 for a national level comp. This is the same as a Mconalds Big Mac McMeal (R25) to the price of 2 movie tickets with popcorn and a coke each (R100).
Fees payable to your province range from R50 per annum (students) to R100 per annum (adults).

Cricket coaching (groups lesson) 1 x a week costs a 9 year old boy's parents in the region of R500 per month...

In SA you can purchase fencing kit (mask, jacket, breeches, weapon, body wire etc) for around R1 700. A cheap tennis raquet will cost you around R300 (a non maraging electric foil costs around R300 as well in SA). CHEAP Cricket kit will cost in the region of R1 300. Not much less than fencing yet do people say that cricket is 'an expensive sport'???

Yes, there are cheaper sports, especially for the recreational sports person, but fencing is not the sport of the elite that many people seem to think that it is...

[mlr2fence]

Fencing is like many other sports/hobbies. The amount of money spent can vary widely from person to person. One can fence and say its inexpensive and the other can say its very expensive, all depending on their relative cost of living, income, and what the cost of fencing is worth to them. Everyone has a $$$ limit where they will/will not continue pursuing something. (Kind of like an auction where you say I'll bid up to X but it's not worth a penny more) It all depends on the importance one places on that particular endeavor. Compared to pursuing an equestrian hobby, fencing is VERY cheap; compared to jogging around the block, fencing is expensive. Does that mean one can't own/lease/borrow a horse and show at a small local show 1-2 times a year? No. One just tries to save $$$ where they can. Maybe they trade work in exchange for lessons, etc. On the other hand, if I had the money and choose to do it, I could spend $100,000+ to buy a horse. Its the same in fencing. I can spend $$ for complete FIE or I can choose to save $$ and only selectively purchase FIE, or save even more and hve no FIE. What I spend to go to a tournament can be very different from what the person across the strip from me spent. But, if I wanted to reach the upper echelons of any sport/hobby it costs way more than what the recreational person spends. Everyone follows their interests at whatever level they want and can afford according to the relative worth they assign to it. One can make anything cheap or expensive.

[sabreman]

Windsor, But at least there is some chance of making big bucks if you are a great piano player. I remember seeing a 60 Minute piece about kids from the same family all becoming concert piano players (getting to play the circut) so it is possible.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by Army Fencer

Something isn't implied if you go out and say it.

Well, a one word statment usually requires SOME interpretation...but since the general subject had already been established, it is quite reasonable to apply it there: I'll try to

Originally Posted by Army Fencer

I have no clue what you're trying to say here, because your grammar is poor and you use run-on sentences excessively.

Well, I usually try to keep the grammar correct, or make things clear; I'll plead guilty to the run-on charge!

Originally Posted by Army Fencer

I know this is an online forum, but if you want to argue with people, please clean up your writing. You aren't frustrating people (Mo and me) because of what you say, but how you're saying it. It comes off as unintelligent.

Well, I think it's pretty clear that, for Mo, it's what I am saying.

For you, I will restate:

Obviously, if there's no clubs in your area, (i.e. within 40-50 miles), just getting to fencing becomes a difficult, and expensive proposition;

Most people are going to include competition as part of any sport, so if there are no competitions ever held in your area (i.e. within 100-120 miles), again, fencing, then is going to be more expensive, and that is an issue many people face.

If you DO live in an area where competitions are regularly held, it IS going to cost some money (400-500 bucks) if you can't borrow any of the requisite equipment, and have to buy it all.

Once you have done all that, continuing to compete is not remarkably expensive. If you CHOOSE to go compete beyond your local level (which many of us do, and that's great.), certainly, there's no limit to how much you can spend, if you have the money. But it's still your choice to do so.

I hope that was more clear.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by Fencing Mom

<snip>
First, what was learned?
Elite fencing is expensive. Other levels of fencing are also expensive, depending on what level and how much money is available to spend. Other interests, as significant as fencing or not, are also expensive, depending on the level and the money one has to spend. Hardly rocket science.

I concurr.
However there ARE levels of fencing that aren't remarkably expensive.

Originally Posted by Fencing Mom

As for all those who feel compelled to lecture Mo on her perceived choices and on how to raise a family - get a life, or perhaps more appropriately, get a family before you judge. A family is made up of individuals with unique personalities. Each family has its own set of circumstances and genetics influencing it.

Well, I'll be the first to admit that I've had a little too much time on my hands the last couple weeks, and, arguably, better things to do with it.

And it's certainly extremely difficult to really understand someone else's situation with such a cursory exposure such as this.

However, I was in a family with four kids, a lot of hand-me-downs, and limited income; and we were always aware of the other kids in school who got all the all the latest clothes, shoes, toys, bikes, etc. We didn't get stuff just because we asked for it. As an adult, I understand many of the choices, problems, and sacrifices my parents faced, and made. The fact that I don't currently have a family doesn't change that.

Originally Posted by Fencing Mom

While there are a few truisms about raising a healthy, happy family, no one can really predict how family members will react to love, support, sacrifice, sibling rivalry and stress, financial or otherwise. It is totally unrealistic and a bit arrogant, in my opinion, for people who have never met Mo and her family to question her wisdom and motivations.

Firstly, I never questioned her motivations, nor, really her wisdom; only her right to blame the sport for the way she seems to feel about her decisions.

Secondly, (to the best of my knowledge) you, nor she, know, or have even met me, yet you both seem quite comfortable impugning my wisdom and motivations. I don't know who's being more self-righteous...

Originally Posted by Fencing Mom

I, for one, thank Mo, Capt. Slo-Mo, and all the parents and supporters of elite fencers, as well as the parents of knock-em-dead dancers, amazing violinists, incredible gymnasts, and great soccer, basketball and football players.

As I said, before, I appreciate that Mo wants to do the best for her child(ren), and has found something that has inspired and motivated this one to make some very impressive achievements...but there's more to it than that.

Originally Posted by Fencing Mom

Without you, your family’s sacrifices, and your children’s unwavering pursuit of a passion, there would be no Olympic stars, no Venus and Serena, no David Beckham, no Tiger Woods, no Yo-Yo Ma.

Well, that may all well be true, but for each one of them there's probably a dozen, or a hundred who may have done as much, or more, but just not resulted in that level of success: I think what's more important is how they are going to feel about it 10-20 years from now.

Originally Posted by Fencing Mom

Despite what may or may not have happened twenty years ago, today there are no walk-ons, no three-lesson wunderkinds. Each successful athlete or prodigy represents countless hours of practice, lessons, and travel. For the kids themselves, this comes at the expense of what is typically thought of as a “normal” childhood.

No question there.

Originally Posted by Fencing Mom

The young hopefuls are pushing the envelope of excellence, and I am enthralled to watch.

Well, I appreciate that US fencing has improved a lot as years have passed, but frankly, I have to say I find it a little scary to learn how how much time and money has gone into it, while I can't help but wonder what the long term cost/yield will be.

Originally Posted by The0ne

Shame on any one of us who shakes our head in disdain at sacrificing parents and elite athletes but then can’t wait to fill in the March Madness brackets, attend a Rose Bowl party or toast our favorite team at the pub.

That's a pretty broad brush you're wielding. For the record, I was perfectly satisfied waiting 15 years for my school team to make the Rose Bowl, and just as satisifed when they lost a good game; I have never filled out a march madness bracket, nor toasted my favorite team in a pub.

I hold no disdain for Mo, or any other parents who may make some sacrifices for their children: My issue was with the implication that the sport was making Mo, and her child, do something they didn't want to do.

===

Originally Posted by The0ne

First off, saying that fencing is cheaper, or as cheap as many other sports is totally wrong. Fencing is probably slightly cheaper than Hockey, but other than that, at a recreational or competitive divisional level it is more expensive than most sports. Chris, I am one of those cadet level fencers, I've been fencing for 3 years, and I am a pretty competitive person.

Good for you, I guess. (I have to ask: have you ever played hockey, football outside of school programs, skied?)

Originally Posted by The0ne

This means that to be a competitive part of high level national stuff (ie where the best fencing is) I HAVE to go to NAC's and World Cups. I could decide that being number 25 in the nation is OK, no need to go farther than that, but that for me is just out of the question.

Exactly, the operative word, is "DECIDE", and you did it! You, Not the sport itself. Every decision comes with consequences. I decided to post this reply, knowing that some people will take issue with it, and perhaps think ill of me. I am obviously willing to accept that this might happen, if I fail to explain myself well enough.

Originally Posted by The0ne

This means that I do have to spend more money on equipment, and lessons. I happen to be very lucky that my club dues are very low, and I see another coach who does not charge me at the "going rate" for high level lessons (around a dollar a minute). . . The bottom line is that fencing is expensive!! I would know, I pay for all my fencing expenditures myself.

I won't presume that you are on allowance from your parents; either way, you are to be applauded for taking this level of responsiblity for managing your activities. I know kids who can't even keep track of what they are doing for the next 3 days, let alone this level of responsibilty.

What you are missing is that the bulk of this expense is not required by the fencing: it's "required" by your committment to achieve the goals you have chosen. Your being unhappy/unwilling to settle for local competition is a personal issue. You have made a decision, and that's great; I truly hope you will be happy with the way things work out. But it's your decision.

Don't get me wrong: Life is full of tough decsions, and by the end, everyone's usually got a couple they'd like to have back: I know I do, and I am not done, yet!

If you are happy doing what you are doing, great!
Hopefully, you will feel the same, 10-20 years down the line.
If you AREN'T happy doing what you are doing, well, maybe it's time for some kind of change.

Fencing is fencing; people poking around at each other with some sort of pointed stick, according to some agreed rules...
It normally costs some money to practice and enter tournaments.
Compared to other sports, this cost is neither remarkably low, nor high.

Pursuing placement on a national team is a different, and an OPTIONAL thing you have decided to do. And that's going to cost a lot, no matter what sport/activity you are doing.

Getting into the question of which sport's national team would be cheapest to get onto, and where fencing stands on that 'list', is of limited value to me, and could probably be a different thread.

Additionally, there's only going to be 4 kids on the team.
There's quite a few kids that want to be on it; no matter how hard they try, or how much they spend, most of them are going to be disappointed.
You've got to know that going in, and take that into account.

I know that sounds like a fatalistic, or defeatist attutitude, but I like to use the word realistic.

And good luck to you!

Really!


Sincerely,

Chris

[Chris]

Originally Posted by The0ne

The example you picked to compare fencing to (piano playing) is not a sport, and is a very expensive occupation. If you look at other sports such as basketball, soccer, running, and lacrosse, they are cheaper at all levels than fencing. I ran on the varsity track team at a local high-school, and I had to invest only about $150 a year. While I know that running is the cheapest sport there is, that price is all that is required to compete at a middle level.

(Let's not get into the whole 'what's a sport' question...)

THis is not a fair comparison when the track program was sponsored by the school...I was on my college fencing team for 4 years, and it could be argued that, not only was it totally free* , but, as travel to official events was paid, that I actually came out ahead on the deal, as meals were provided on numerous Sundays, when no dorm meals were available, and I would have been 'out-of-pocket' for those meals.

*(No dues, or lesson fees, entry fees, what so ever, and all required gear, except shoes, was provided for use.)

You really shouldnt compare things out of context like that.

Have a nice day!

[Windsor]

Originally Posted by sabreman

Windsor, But at least there is some chance of making big bucks if you are a great piano player. I remember seeing a 60 Minute piece about kids from the same family all becoming concert piano players (getting to play the circut) so it is possible.

Same goes with buying the lottery, no? Concert pianists aren't exactly living the life of luxury either, but really, this is going nowhere. The comparison was made with the assumption that the vast majority of fencers will only reach a middle level of competition and a vast majority of pianists will never perform professionally.

[hpfencing]

Money does help a fencer but a poor person that really wishes to do so will find a way to fence and could become good at it. Anyone ever heard of Peter Westbrook and his program. those people dont have cash but many become great fencers.

We have a scolarship and sponsorship program in Amarillo that High Plains Fenicng has set up to help our fencers to travel and get what they need to fence. Does you local club and division help you out?

[The0ne]

Originally Posted by Chris

(Let's not get into the whole 'what's a sport' question...)

THis is not a fair comparison when the track program was sponsored by the school...I was on my college fencing team for 4 years, and it could be argued that, not only was it totally free* , but, as travel to official events was paid, that I actually came out ahead on the deal, as meals were provided on numerous Sundays, when no dorm meals were available, and I would have been 'out-of-pocket' for those meals.

*(No dues, or lesson fees, entry fees, what so ever, and all required gear, except shoes, was provided for use.)

You really shouldnt compare things out of context like that.

Have a nice day!

Sorry, wasn't quite clear here. Our track team didn't actually get money from the school, we raised it ourselv