Money Makes the Fencer

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As I've followed this discussion re the expense of fencing and in particular competition i've realized that although it seems like I've spent a bundle on fencing lessons, equipment and to a lesser degree on hotels and airfare, my older child was just as expensive in her pursuit of music. the $1800 cello was really only good enough to be a starter instrument and was eventually relegated to being the "school" instrument. We ended up travelling to violin makers in other states to find an appropriate "performance"/college level instrument - that ended up being $5000 exclusive of case and bows. Then there were the lessons and school/ concert trips. The moral is if you love it and it is important enough to you, you'll find a way to do it to the best of your means.

[dreadfoily]

you're right about that. Also I looked at the points accumulated by top fencers in the us and how difficult it would be to qualify for international events. In looking at Iris Z's points for example, she's been accumulating points for so long, it would be practically impossible for a college fencer to make it to the olympics unless they could accumulate an adequate amount of points.

in looking at the point system, what does everyone think of it, is it equitable?
inequitable? it's not something that the average fencer could attain in spite of real talent. I've met some very talented people last year for example and wondered, could they make it to the olympics.....since they have to have the points, and they've just started maybe fencing 3-4 years, yet made it to third place at the nationals. What's your opinion.

[Schiavona]

Originally Posted by Mo

It all depends on what level a fencer fences. Someone who goes to one big meet a year and fences the rest of the time locally can fence for a few hundred bucks a year. If someone is fencing at higher levels, it is different sport.

I think that this is what Chris is/was trying to say.

Yes, fencing is very expensive-but not for the majority of the 17,000 fencers in the USFA!

We once had a very large newspaper article on fencing here in Anchorage. The reporter asked how much gear costs, stupidly, I answered $120 to $1200. Guess which figure ended up in the article? Guess how many calls I got from the article?

Mo, the upside is that your family is in that upper percent of competive fencing! The downside is that your family is in that upper percent of competive fencing!

[Maeve_Mari]

[quote=Link14]My youngest daughter skates and even though she's only approaching the mid-levels (just qualified Juvenile) the costs are a little staggering. Between skating 6 days a week, two lessons a week, several costumes a year, and one pair of skates a year the costs run in the $8-$10K per year range. We haven't had to do much flying yet to competitions but I can see that coming. Oh well, she loves it so I just have to sit back for a while and wait 'til I get both the kids through college, then get back into fencing.QUOTE]

Is there college money for Ice Skating? I can't say as I have ever heard of it, but have wondered what the expectation is for people who spend the $8-10K and more for the kids. Is it just pure enjoyment or is there something else (outside of Pros or Olympics)?

[Maeve_Mari]

Originally Posted by Link14

My youngest daughter skates and even though she's only approaching the mid-levels (just qualified Juvenile) the costs are a little staggering. Between skating 6 days a week, two lessons a week, several costumes a year, and one pair of skates a year the costs run in the $8-$10K per year range. We haven't had to do much flying yet to competitions but I can see that coming. Oh well, she loves it so I just have to sit back for a while and wait 'til I get both the kids through college, then get back into fencing.

Is there college money for Ice Skating? I can't say as I have ever heard of it, but have wondered what the expectation is for people who spend the $8-10K and more for the kids. Is it just pure enjoyment or is there something else (outside of Pros or Olympics)?

Actually, is there even college for Ice Skating? Is it available as a college level sport?

[Mo]

Originally Posted by dreadfoily

in looking at the point system, what does everyone think of it, is it equitable?
inequitable? it's not something that the average fencer could attain in spite of real talent. I've met some very talented people last year for example and wondered, could they make it to the olympics.....since they have to have the points, and they've just started maybe fencing 3-4 years, yet made it to third place at the nationals. What's your opinion.

The points only last for a year. They start at the World Championships and go to the World Championships. USFA points mean nothing for being on the Olympic teams, it is all FIE points.
USFA team points also only last for a year as far as teams go. If you look in the point standings, there are team points for Cadet, Junior and Senior. They are the points that matter when selecting fencers to fence in World Championships and allowing them to go to World Cups.

[Artisan]

Originally Posted by Mo

The points only last for a year. They start at the World Championships and go to the World Championships. USFA points mean nothing for being on the Olympic teams, it is all FIE points.
USFA team points also only last for a year as far as teams go. If you look in the point standings, there are team points for Cadet, Junior and Senior. They are the points that matter when selecting fencers to fence in World Championships and allowing them to go to World Cups.

Don't lets forget the veterans points too, which in some cases are for team selection but in others seem to serve no purpose at all - other than bragging rights and getting folks to go to the NACS to hold onto their places.

[Cyranox11]

I think it is fairly well acknowledged (by a wide range of published sources that I read over 8 years ago and can no longer readily recall) that in certain sports (eg fencing, rugby, cricket, equestrian etc) the material wealth of the contestants parents plays a large role in his or her eventual success as an elite athlete/competitor. Yet, in other sports (especially football [soccer] and boxing) the relative poverty of the athlete is important to their eventual succes ie the poorer the athlete, the better they perform.*

It seems that poorer people who see these sports as a way out of their situation will be motivated more than others, conversley the best athletes in the poorer parts of the community will not be attracted to (for example) fencing as it offers very little by way of monetary reward/security. Middle class fencers will (typically) go so far in the sport until the cost outweighs the perceived benefits or it interferes with the more importanbt business of earning a living/studying to earn a living. It could be argued that only those with sufficient extra cash to 'waste' on a sport that offers almost no chance of earning a living from it will carry on with it to an elite level... I am not sure that the actual cost of the sport is at issue here as much as it is the real or perceived benefits of participating in the sport to a high level...

It is interesting, that in South Africa, whenever we do sports development drives, there are two questions that predomintae:
1. How much does the sport cost? (Most commonly asked by those who are financially better off and therefore in our still racially divided country these people are usually white.)
2. How much do I get paid to fence? (Most commonly asked by those who are financially worse off and therefore in our still racially divided country these people are usually black.)

As an aside, this issue results in an ethical question: should a person who was born to a poor family be allowed to offset their relative disadvantages (less coaching, worse facillities etc at a formative stage) with chemical enhancements?

I know of at least some authors/sports ethicists (???) who argue that they should be allowed this dispensation... Not sure I agree though...

* Please note that this may be changing as sports such as rugby professionalise and therefore change their basic structure and rationale...

[Army Fencer]

Originally Posted by Chris

Mo said, earlier, that fencing is expensive, but she's wrong!

It's only expensive if you actually treat it like a competitive sport.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by sabreman

Maryland, Clemson, Duke, Virginia, NC State and UNC had official mens teams. Clemson, Maryland, UNC and NC State offered ships. Clemson finished 2nd in NCAAs and they decided to drop the program a couple years later.

i could've sworn we had a women's team too...
i guess i need to go read up on our history some more.
i think we were dropped the year after getting 2nd. still kinda wish we weren't. then maybe the university would actually give a crap about us.

[Link14]

Originally Posted by Maeve_Mari

Is there college money for Ice Skating? I can't say as I have ever heard of it, but have wondered what the expectation is for people who spend the $8-10K and more for the kids. Is it just pure enjoyment or is there something else (outside of Pros or Olympics)?

Actually, is there even college for Ice Skating? Is it available as a college level sport?

I haven't heard of any skating money in colleges, and since she wants to be an orthopedic surgeon, my chances of her going to a school that had one would be fairly low anyways.

Expectations.....hmmm. We're pretty sure we're not Olympic bound, but she went to Regionals (our sectionals) last year and is hoping to go to Sectionals one day (one step below Nationals). I think our main motivation for her skating is that it teachs a great work ethic and gives her excellent excercise. You see very few out-of-shape skaters and most of them excel in school. Probably the same for younger fencers too.

The skating club does have several skaters that have gone one to the traveling skating shows. Most of them think it's a great experience and gives them a chance to travel.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by Army Fencer

It's only expensive if you actually treat it like a competitive sport.

That goes for any activity!

I have seen/known people who spend thousands a years on things they aren't even competing in, like photography, and scrap-booking, or even going to movies, (OK, that last one is a stretch, but not much...).

It's fairly easy to find reasonably-priced clubs for less than $500/year*,
*(on par with many national chain health clubs), pay USFA membership and compete in local, and some regional tournaments, AND replace, let's say, even 5-6 broken blades for about $1000.00 per year, and other than the fact that it IS an expense, it's really not expenSIVE. I mean, it's not a walk in the park, which is usually (but not always) free, it doesn't HAVE to be a $5,000/year proposition! Hell, people have been known to spend that kind of money bird-watching!

Obviously, there's a bit of a barrier acquiring the equipment necessary to compete, but that applies to most activities.

OK, so you have to cough up a little cash! It's not going to be free!
Cough it up, and quit complaining about it!

I mean, really, the biggest expense is the TIME is takes to learn it, and (for many, including me) the time it takes to get to/from practice and competitions!

When I went to our Sectional Event recently, I was able to stay with a friend, so saved some money there, and we could have avoided the long drive, and taking a half day off of work by flying, but that would still have involved a good four hours traveling each way, and killing my whole weekend, all to fence two events, for a mathemathic maximum of less than 3 hours actual fencing, and in fact, since I didn't make the top four, and most bouts take usually take less than 66% of the maximum time, it's really more like 1.5 hours!

In terms of time, that's a pretty expensive proposition!

Have Fun!

[Army Fencer]

Okay, Chris. Let's go back to the beginning. Mo's premise was that in order to be a successful fencer, you have to have money.

Originally Posted by Mo

We were doing a "wonder what happened to?" discussion and came to the conclusion that a lot of what makes a fencer successful is some very solid financial backing. If a fencer is not getting the results to make cadet and junior teams, they often decide it is too expensive to continue competing.

It doesn't cost a whole lot to go into someone's backyard with your whites and a foil or two. But if you actually treat fencing like a sport, you have to do a lot more than play around at your buddy's house. You have to train, you have to drill, you have to compete. To do those things, it takes money.

On a side note, I think that because we have a lot of people who don't treat fencing as a competitive sport, we don't have a who lot of good American competitors. The result of which is we have to travel further to fence good fencers. It's a vicious cycle.

[sabreman]

Noodle, I think Clemson had a womens team but I am not sure if it was official or just a club team. Women only fenced foil back then. My brother was one of the first scholarship fencers (out of NJ) at Clemson. He was on one of the most dominate sabre teams (all 3 were NJ sabre fencers) in NCAA history -> 1978-79 season. The ACC was really on the verge of dominating NCAA mens fencing (pissing off the Ivy league types because the best NJ fencers were taking the money) but it all came to an end with Title 9. The ACC decided to drop fencing as an official sport and that was the end.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by Mo

Wrong according to whom?

Well, according to me, obviously!

Originally Posted by Mo

What is your basis of authority??

The basis of my authority???

Well, the basis of my opinion is a history of fencing in competitions since 1976, including Junior Nationals in both epee, and medaling in foil; (after that I started taking lessons), Junior Olympics in all 3 weapons, 2 NCAA Championships, qualifying Division 1 Nationals in all three weapons, including top 64 in both foil and epee.

I currently compete regularly, and regionally; I am a solid 'B' in epee, and a solid 'C' in foil, though, obviously, I am not the best fencer in the country; occaisionally, I am the best fencer who shows up somewhere: I would certainly do better if I went to more NAC's (mainly, I would do better if I lost 30 pounds! )

My objectives are to A. Have some healthy, fun exercise; B.win some events, C. improve my skills, and D. win bigger events! (i.e. I am trying to challenge myself.) But it's not my objective to be the best fencer in the country - I decided long ago that that was not going to happen; and frankly, it's because I didn't want the pressure of having to worry about my results justifying the expense of time and money.

I fence because it's fun, and I like it it; I am fairly good at it, and sometimes I win, and I like it; I meet interesting people, and I like it.

Obviously, you have been convinced (I obviously can not say by whom) that fencing is all about going to international competitions (in order to 'make the team'?) . No disrespect intended, but that's a whole different thing than fencing, and if that's the only reason you/your child is involved, well, then I question that you are really interested in fencing: I know too many people who were more interested in making the team, than fencing, and once they decided (some of them with just as poor judgement in that decision, as well, I might add) that they could not make the team, then they quit, with much time, effort and money spent lost to the sport.

As I said, before, making the team is expensive: fencing is not.

Originally Posted by Mo

One of my kids did gymnastics for four years. She was competing. The cost of the four years does not even approach the cost of this year. She was quite competitive and on a team.
The issue is, fencing is very small.

Well, I will grant you that this IS a problem (probably our biggest one) for fencing (as well as some other sports), and that one may find themselves in the middle of North Dakota, or Montana, with a pretty limited options; so one makes decisions: there's a gal in our area who, in fact, moved from several states away, because the daughter wanted to fence. Fortunately, the family is small enough that is was a manageable undertaking.

But that's more of an environmental issue: I imagine I would have to drop some cash on equipment, but to say that mountain climbing is expensive because I live in Flatland, Indiana, really doesn't compute: if I lived in Colorado mountain climbing would probably be fairly inexpensive (once I have got all my gear). Climbing Mount Everest, however, is another matter entirely, and pretty expensive, even if you live there, unless, of course, it's your job.

Originally Posted by Mo

To get anywhere in fencing at all if you have talent, you MUST compete over seas. In the vast majority of other sports, all that travel is not required.

Who said you had to get anywhere, and where is it that you think you need to get?

Originally Posted by Mo

Private lessons are pretty much required

Excuse me, what page in the OP's manual is that on?

Originally Posted by Mo

and just going to a serious club on a monthly basis can run upwards of 500 bucks a month.

Obviously, it CAN, because I would never think for a second that you are lieing about it, but it doesn't have to cost that much. I'm sorry if that's really the only choice in your area, but I can't help but wonder (your profile doesn't say where you are from...).

Originally Posted by Mo

That does not include any equipment, club dues,

Sorry, I am confused, didn't you just say that going to your 'serious' club costs you $500.00 a month?

Originally Posted by Mo

FIE regulation clothing is about 1000 dollars for a fencer.

OK, I checked, (I had to go to the American Fencers' site anyway) and it IS possible to spend $1000.00 on top-of-the-line FIE stuff (IF you include the FIE underarm protector, AND), IF you include the shipping, but that's without any shopping, or negotiating.

And, again, while it's not a bad thing, it's not required to actually fence: it's only required to fence where you have decided to fence!

Originally Posted by Mo

The size of the sport demands nation and world wide competitions.

Ehh, I don't really see that: certainly the leadership of the USFA has, as one of its higher priorities, to support the desires/demands of the USOC, and engage in programming/activites to get US fencers at the top of the game; and that's fine; that should be part of their priorites; it doesn't HAVE to be one of yours!

The sport itself doesn't demand that, and it certainly doesn't demand that you (or your child) participate in that process: You do.

Originally Posted by Mo

A good fencer has to have the money to pay for them or they will not get progress.

That is my point - if you want to really excell at something (which appears to be the decision you and your child have made), you are usually going to have spend time and money to do so. The cost is attached to the endeavor to excell at the activity, it is NOT intrinsically attached to the activity itself.

But the enjoyment of fencing is not solely based on elite progression, nor is that progression mandated.

Originally Posted by Mo

If fencing is not expensive, why would any people spend a lot of money doing it? Your logic is flawed.

I am sorry, YOUR logic is flawed. That's like saying driving is expensive because 'Indy' cars cost a million dollars! I can still enjoy driving a cheap car, and I can still enjoy fencing in local tournaments with cheap non-FIE gear. You can be a snob about it, but I am still fencing, and still having fun!

Originally Posted by Mo

Fencing is expensive. Plus, one bad month can make the entire year go down the crapper.

[Whoa! Schedule another bed in the burnout ward!]

Originally Posted by Mo

It all depends on what level a fencer fences. Someone who goes to one big meet a year and fences the rest of the time locally can fence for a few hundred bucks a year. If someone is fencing at higher levels, it is different sport.

Yes, but that's a decision you made to specifically target your objectives and activities to support them: they are not essential to the sport of fencing.
You are not barred outright from local competition because you are an elite fencer (it's more likely that you will be highly sought after!), but rather that you choose NOT to, based on your priorities,a nd time management constraints, but again, the operative word is DECIDE!

It's not the fencing that is expensive!

[My kung fu is better than your kung fu!]


Have Fun!
Seriously!
Have Fun!

[Fencing Mom]

Sabreman said:The ACC was really on the verge of dominating NCAA mens fencing (pissing off the Ivy league types because the best NJ fencers were taking the money) but it all came to an end with Title 9.

Let me clarify that. It all came to an end when the ACC was compelled to offer the same amount of athletic scholarships to women as they had been offering to men.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by sabreman

Noodle, I think Clemson had a womens team but I am not sure if it was official or just a club team. Women only fenced foil back then. My brother was one of the first scholarship fencers (out of NJ) at Clemson. He was on one of the most dominate sabre teams (all 3 were NJ sabre fencers) in NCAA history -> 1978-79 season. The ACC was really on the verge of dominating NCAA mens fencing (pissing off the Ivy league types because the best NJ fencers were taking the money) but it all came to an end with Title 9. The ACC decided to drop fencing as an official sport and that was the end.

well, clemson's varsity team was supposedly dropped for another reason. i know no solid facts, though, and i'm sure the only person who does is the former coach wherever he is.

anyway, its always good to hear from someone who used to fence (vicariously, at least) here or knows about our old team.

[Sabresque]

Originally Posted by Chris

[Whoa! Schedule another bed in the burnout ward!]

Seriously, though, I think that it IS very hard for the average fencer with good talent and a high possibility of making national team/olympics to actually do it because of the money. The richer you are (even if your talent isnt' as high), the more of an advantage you have because you have more chances to get higher points. They can afford LOTS of bad days.