Poll: Boycotting Segregated events

[jetzm]

There's been some talk of boycotting segregated events, I just wanted to see what the numbers were like. Would you boycott?

[Monkeyboy]

I dont think it's all that bad being around good looking, athletic ladies who can handle a blade as well as themselves....

[kalivor]

Given that there are never mixed competitions around here and I go to them, this was a pretty easy choice.

[Prometheus]

There are no mixed events at NACs, Nationals, World Cups, World Championships or the Olympics. Not to mention most notable regional torments and frequently division level tournaments.

Boycotting segregated events will make for an extremely self-limiting fencing career.

[noodle]

There are no mixed events at NACs, Nationals, World Cups, World Championships or the Olympics. Not to mention most notable regional torments and frequently division level tournaments.

Boycotting segregated events will make for an extremely self-limiting fencing career.

*cough*
this is exactly what i was going to post but you beat me to it (except add to the list collegiate fencing)

[telkanuru]

Moreover, every singe sporting event I can think of is divided along gender lines in order to recognise basic physiological differences between men and women. I see no reason why fencing should be different. It's not like they're saying that women can only fence after they're done in the kitchen

[Peach]

Why not men's only, women's only, AND mixed? All good practice, after all.

I prefer to fence a good women's event whenever I can, because it's the kind of practice I need in order to fence the events that matter to me (presently, the national veteran's events) but a mixed event is good exercise and a pleasant day's entertainment, which after all is the point if you do this as a hobby . . . which far more of us do than might be indicated in this thread.

[dreadfoily]

"I am a man, 280 pounds and fence foil for 16 years with the NFL. I would like my A, my Cup and a medal, please don't take away mixed foil" sincerely, Man.

[MikeHarm]

Fencing is different because there have always been two sides to fencing, one side physical and using strength, the other academic which have always been an even match historically. The academic side allows people to outfox people stronger and faster and younger or of a different gender.

Women are capable of winning mixed events consistantly if they train hard and have good coaching that trains them to exploit the ways men try to fence women, that is the difference. Fencing is unique and unlike the other sports specifically in this regard, and this is one of the greatest things about our sport.

In Michigan for instance, we had our championship as a mixed only event. I was beaten by a woman who was much more skilled than I was in foil. I don't think I'm a weak or slow guy. She fenced better, so she won. Of the final four in our foil championship half were women and women have won the event in the past.

Let's take down the barriers, and let the best fencers win whoever or whatever group they are in I say.

Moreover, every singe sporting event I can think of is divided along gender lines in order to recognise basic physiological differences between men and women. I see no reason why fencing should be different. It's not like they're saying that women can only fence after they're done in the kitchen

[The0ne]

as Peach said (kinda) fenicng is fencing. I don't care if my opponent is male, female, or neither. I just want to fence a good bout and win!!!

[Inquartata]

Talking about huge events like NACs is a bit wide of the mark. Those draw sufficient numbers to make even separate events hard and worthwhile. Most local and even regional events simply don't have the luxury of that option, IMO. Unless you want to relegate women to second-class status in a lot of ways mixed events are a choice they ought to get to make, not have made for them.

I'd probably agree to support a boycott by the women fencers. If they didn't care enough to protest I don't know that I'd do it on my own. ( Nor that I'd be missed if I did! )

[germanguy]

.....

[Swordmaster]

Women are capable of winning mixed events consistantly if they train hard and have good coaching that trains them to exploit the ways men try to fence women, that is the difference. Fencing is unique and unlike the other sports specifically in this regard, and this is one of the greatest things about our sport.:

Mike,
I don't know if ya'll have really strong women up there in MI or *cough* weak guys *cough*. Out of 5 circuit tournaments with hundreds of competitors there were only 4 women who placed in the top eight in the mixed events, none of them made it to the final four. And they are the ones who usually fence the mixed events, in other words the "elite" women.

[The0ne]

this is true, statistically men win opens more than women. But women can, even against very good competition. Ann Marsh won an open where she beat two men's A's. I think the reason that women do not do so well in opens is that women tend to have a very different style than men. The men's game is very fast and involves plenty of flicking, and not much emphasis on bladework. Women's fencing actually has actions that get into counter-repostes--more parries and beats are used, and many tend not to defend the flick very well. I think those factors rather than gender determine why women don't do as well against men. . .

[R. Exnicios]

Moreover, every singe sporting event I can think of is divided along gender lines in order to recognise basic physiological differences between men and women. I see no reason why fencing should be different. It's not like they're saying that women can only fence after they're done in the kitchen

Here’s a short list of mixed / integrated events

All equestrian events are mixed including the grueling three-day event.

Mixed volleyball is played at the intramural level at most universities and at the recreational level nation wide.

5K, 10K and even Marathons are run mixed, with awards for men and women, but if a woman wins the men’s event she wins the event. Boston Marathon, Peach, NY City etc.

Triathlons, including the Bud lit e triathlon series. Awards are done the same as the road races. Awards for top finish and for top women, if a woman wins top finish she gets both awards.

Auto Racing (okay maybe not a sport to us but a multi Billion dollar industry), almost all motor sports for that mater

Adventure Racing

Sailing

The list grows everyday due to both legal issue challenges and probably more importantly economics

Remember this topic of mixed events was started concerning a local circuit and is not focused at all at NACs, Nationals, JOs or NCAA collegiate.

[germanguy]

.....

[gojujay]

R. Exnicios has some very good points. Don't know for sure what his position is. I think fencing should be a mixed event. If women can keep up, then they can keep up. If not, then they lose, along with most of the men. Survival of the fittest, I guess

[Swordmaster]

...If women can keep up, then they can keep up. If not, then they lose, along with most of the men. Survival of the fittest, I guess

This is what we are trying to prevent, the excusion of 99% of the women from the sport. If you lump everyone together in mixed events then the only ones who will benefit(?) are the "elite" women who think that their game will improve by fencing men so that they can beat more women. But the rank and file women will, after time - just as they have in this section over the past five years- vote with their feet, they will stop participating.

Remember this topic of mixed events was started concerning a local circuit and is not focused at all at NACs, Nationals, JOs or NCAA collegiate.

This is like saying someone is just a little pregnant. You full well know that if you open this pandoras box that it will go all the way to the top of the sport. The USFA will not allow some guy in South Louisiana to dictate to them how their division's tournaments are allowed to be structured.
Of course this will be very good for someones law practice, hmmm could this actually be the motivation?
All those that trust the lawyers raise your wallets!

[Swordmaster]

All equestrian events are mixed including the grueling three-day event.
Mixed volleyball is played at the intramural level at most universities and at the recreational level nation wide.
5K, 10K and even Marathons are run mixed, with awards for men and women, but if a woman wins the men’s event she wins the event. Boston Marathon, Peach, NY City etc.
Triathlons, including the Bud lit e triathlon series. Awards are done the same as the road races. Awards for top finish and for top women, if a woman wins top finish she gets both awards.
Auto Racing (okay maybe not a sport to us but a multi Billion dollar industry), almost all motor sports for that matter.
Adventure Racing
Sailing
The list grows everyday due to both legal issue challenges

I guess we know who brings up Legal issue challenges

I don't see any physically combative sports listed. Is it just that you left those off the list- since it was just your short list - or is there a REASON men and women do not compete against one another in physical contact/combative sports at a professional/advanced level
ie NFL, NBA, Boxing, WWF, DIVI, DIVII, DIVIII, JOs, The Olympic Games.

I really don't view running against someone, or riding a horse against someone, or driving a car, boat, plane, train, soapbox...etc. against someone, a physically combative sport. Sure they are all physically demanding sports and in most that you have mentioned there are a relative few women who deside to compete in those sports in which they butt head with men. But that does not mean that it must be mandated by a court of law that ALL women must compete against men.

This all equates to Title IX, the failed attempt by a court to mandate sex equality in collegent sports. All that did was ruin the sport structure of most colleges. Instead of adding women to the sports that existed, it striped most non-major men's sporting teams of their scholaships and set the devolopment of sports like fencing back a hundred years. Where there were once thriving collegent fencing programs with deserving atheletes recieving scholaships, you now have womens volleyball, tabletennis, archery, golf...and the list goes on and on...of programs that are developed to keep the courts happy, not designed to produce the best of anything.

[Peach]

This all equates to Title IX, the failed attempt by a court to mandate sex equality in collegent sports. All that did was ruin the sport structure of most colleges. Instead of adding women to the sports that existed, it striped most non-major men's sporting teams of their scholaships and set the devolopment of sports like fencing back a hundred years. Where there were once thriving collegent fencing programs with deserving atheletes receiving scholaships, you now have womens volleyball, tabletennis, archery, golf...and the list goes on and on...of programs that are developed to keep the courts happy, not designed to produce the best of anything.

From what I've read and seen, it wasn't Title IX that caused the problem but the implementation of Title IX by colleges who didn't want to sacrifice big money men's sports, so they sacrificed small men's sports instead. My daughter wouldn't be fencing in college if it weren't for Title IX--and her college manages to maintain both men's and women's fencing. Of course, their big men's sport is baseball and to a certain extent basketball, not football, so they didn't have to sacrifice small men's sports on the altar of alumni donations.

I could be prejudiced. I don't care for the football industry in this country. It's not a sport, it's a business.