Separate Men's & Women's Events Fair or Not?

[edew]

No, you should not suffer if there is a paltry number of female fencers. The wise course of action is of course hold mixed events.

Once there are enough fencers, go right ahead and run separate women's events. I will bet that by doing so, you will increase the population of women fencers faster.

[edew]

Originally Posted by Txakurra

I have absolutely no problem having both women events and mixed events. The issue should not be so focused on separating the events as it should be at the rating system. Many of us have been destroyed often by legitimately rated women fencers and have no issues with that. However, many of us have also fenced women who have higher ratings that they achieved at “women” events that are FAR from comparable to those acquired at mixed events. Maybe these ratings need to be recognized. If Jane Doe acquires her C rating at a mixed event or a Women only event then maybe that should be indicated as part of the rating. For example:

Jane Doe Foil C04w(women) DO3m (mixed)

It's tough enough to get new classifications sent to USFA and updated. Frankly, people should just forget the whole classification deal. Without having to go on my "classifications are just for seeding purposes" soapbox, let me just say, "Classifications are just for seeding purposes." Once the initial seeding is done, go fence and do your best.

At local competitions, where there are fewer pools and more fencers from the same three or four clubs, balancing the pools based on club affiliation is more of a factor than classifications, in affecting the resulting pool assignments. So frankly, that classification letter is basically irrelevant unless it seeds the person in the top-3 or top-4 (to ensure they don't fence each other in the pools).

[scarlet_woman156k]

Originally Posted by Txakurra

I have absolutely no problem having both women events and mixed events. The issue should not be so focused on separating the events as it should be at the rating system. Many of us have been destroyed often by legitimately rated women fencers and have no issues with that. However, many of us have also fenced women who have higher ratings that they achieved at “women” events that are FAR from comparable to those acquired at mixed events. Maybe these ratings need to be recognized. If Jane Doe acquires her C rating at a mixed event or a Women only event then maybe that should be indicated as part of the rating. For example:

Jane Doe Foil C04w(women) DO3m (mixed)

Dude, what the hell is that crap? Do you honestly think there isn't letter inflation in men as well? Holy crap. I know you aren't trying to sound sexist (for your sake I hope you aren't...otherwise I'm going to have to beat your *** ), but it sure looks that way.

[edew]

Originally Posted by scarlet_woman156k

I reearned my B at a local mixed competition. NEVER EVER have I been to a local women's competition that was more than a D or C event (typically a D or E event) in my division OR section (outside of Remnyik at Northwestern). It BLOWS. I fence the women's comps because women DO fence differently than men in style, etc. However, I LOVE fencing the guys locally because they give me practice on the mental, control, agility, etc., etc. aspects of bouting. The men's competition is more up there on the local level than the women's...HANDS DOWN. Am I to suffer because of segregation? That would just piss me off and frustrate me to no end, what would be the point of competing locally then? National events are a completely different story.

Sectionals was essentially a snooze fest for me except for one interesting bout the whole darn day...and all I did the whole day was pine away watching the lovely men's epee competition, wishing I could compete in it. I just wanted to compete in it...you can even take me out of the results, even, I just wanted to fence the better competition!

Go right ahead and do so at club. Help bring up the strength and caliber of women fencers. It's not as though the men fencers were dropped down from heaven as these lovely skilled fencers. They worked hard to become good. Help yourselves to become good as well.

[R. Exnicios]

Originally Posted by edew

. . . .
I'd say this lawyer hasn't a leg to stand on.

I thought I would add just a little humor to this.

As for the legs to stand on...

I have one leg with a new knee and one with an old knee

Cheers

[scarlet_woman156k]

Originally Posted by edew

Go right ahead and do so at club. Help bring up the strength and caliber of women fencers. It's not as though the men fencers were dropped down from heaven as these lovely skilled fencers. They worked hard to become good. Help yourselves to become good as well.

Edew, how do people actually cultivate women into fencing? I cling to the new estrogen like it's going out of style, but they typically float away or don't want to compete, for whatever reason. And it's not like my club has a crap-ola epee program...it's good. So, it's a huge pet peeve of mine. I cannot even get a women's team for SNATs in my club, let alone a composite from the division.

It's extremely frustrating for me and it's been bothering me more and more as each season comes and goes. I WANT a higher level of competitiveness in women's competitions, but must opt for the mixed events in order to get the competition training I need and use the women's events to warm up or work on tactics.

[R. Exnicios]

Originally Posted by Philistine

Have there been cases which hold this outside of Title IX, or otherwise in the context of a private organization like the USFA?

Not to show my cards completely but yes, several

Originally Posted by Philistine

However, I'm a bit leery of filing suit (and requiring depletion of division/section/national funds on defending it) for what appears to be a local issue.

It is a division & section issue. The section is mandating how the divisions run certain events. We do not plan on bringing the National office into this. And yes we are not happy to be doing this but we feel we must. We are not doing this to bankrupt the divisions and sections but unfortunatly federal litigation is extremely expensive.

Originally Posted by Philistine

What is the general feeling in the division/section on this issue? Maybe it should be something put up to a vote.

Great question. In prior years, when there was a large number of clubs & divisions present at the sectional meeting and these issue came up they were loudly voted down. This years sectionals were sort of in the boonies and were very sparsely attended. (Men's Saber, 5 entries, women's saber 3; Men's foil 18, women's foil 7) We do not have the minutes from the meeting yet but we feel that this is NOT the consensus of the section but mearly the opinion of a handful of people. We probably have more fencers ready to sign on as plaintiffs than people that attended the meeting.

There is a much bigger issue here but I can't get into it for obvious reasons.

Trust me this is not something we decided on the spur of the moment.

Lastly this can all easily go away if the section officers do the right thing.

Thanks for all the input. keep it coming.
Cheers.

[germanguy]

.....

[shlepzig]

Logistically isn't this a similar state to the Veterans classes. Which are largely fenced mixed with the Senior classes. Vets usually are combined in the same pools as the rest until they get to select veteran only tournaments which have a wide enough field to provide good competition.

Men's fields in tournaments are usually much stronger, in part because they are much larger. Say you have the top 10 athletes at an event out of 100 or out of 20, the caliber of those athletes is going to be much higher. Which will ncourage much stronger competition throughout the class bringing the high water mark that much higher.

Physically yes women are different than men (thank goodness) but those difference have little to do with their fencing ability. I have seen some very capable female fencers.

My vote, let them fence in Men's Tournaments if they choose, and hold the Women's tournaments if you have enough entries. Mix the two if there are not enough women's entries. I do not think they the number of women that want to excercise that option would significantly dilute the competion. In fairness perhaps you could require that a woman choose which division women's or men's they would compete in for the season and reflect that on their USFA registration, all points and classifications be awarded in reference to that class.

Shlep

[edew]

Our local veterans tournaments are all mixed. If and when the women's population is large enough and there's a call for a split, we will make that change.

Our saber events are also all mixed (with a women's component as in many situations). If there's a call to have the events split, we will address that request then.

Our foil events used to be gender separated. This year, we made the open event mixed. Funny thing, only (for the most part) the weaker women fencers competed in the open mixed. The stronger fencers chose to stick with the women's only event. The result was that none of the women fencers ever made it past the first round of DEs, unless they had to fence among themselves. I see no positive benefit for the female fencers. There's no negative cost to the male fencers, as some of the male fencers were at the same caliber as some of the female fencers: it was as if we had just some more weaker male fencers.

The logistics issue was a negative factor, as in one instance, the women's event had to be held back for starting until there's more room. Some of the women fencers were confused as to whom they should be fencing.

All in all, the result was discouraged beginning women fencers, confused competitors and bout committee folks, delays, and irritated people.

[Victor]

An important aspect of this issue has not been raised yet: The person threatening to file the lawsuit is a big ol' dingleberry.

The courts will (or should) take one look at this person and reach one logical conclusion. "You are a troublemaker. Go away. You're bothering us."

-----

I don't care if women get to fence in men's events ... as long as I get to fence in the women's events, too. (shrug) Just want to be fair.

[davesaint]

I have no problem with mixed events. I don't know what the big deal is for segregating them. Frankly I have bouted against a couple of pretty good women fencers in the past, and I don't see the problem of allowing them to fence against the best competition. Besides, I am often frustrated in segregated tourneys as I fence epee and my wife fences foil. Often theses events are on separate days. If they were a combined mixed event, it is likely that they both could be completed on the same day. Which would cut down on my driving and parking fees.

Hey Scarlett, I think you should adapt your rating to B04(B) for a boy B rating.

[flying foil]

Ahhh- it is so nice that those that obviously have little or no knowledge of the law of the person trying to protect those women and fencers who DO actually CARE about this issue and promoting better fencing opportunities for ALL fencers including women resorts to name calling. CLASSY- next tournament better hide from all of us who actually think the "dingleberry" goes above and beyond for all of fencing - unfortunately even YOU have probably benefitted from his expertise and vigilance in past issues.

Originally Posted by Victor

An important aspect of this issue has not been raised yet: The person threatening to file the lawsuit is a big ol' dingleberry.

The courts will (or should) take one look at this person and reach one logical conclusion. "You are a troublemaker. Go away. You're bothering us."

-----

I don't care if women get to fence in men's events ... as long as I get to fence in the women's events, too. (shrug) Just want to be fair.

[wflaschka]

Originally Posted by flying foil

Ahhh- it is so nice that those that obviously have little or no knowledge of the law of the person trying to protect those women and fencers who DO actually CARE about this issue and promoting better fencing opportunities for ALL fencers including women resorts to name calling. CLASSY- next tournament better hide from all of us who actually think the "dingleberry" goes above and beyond for all of fencing - unfortunately even YOU have probably benefitted from his expertise and vigilance in past issues.

Raw nerve! Raw nerve! Have we found our litigant?

[NoFleche]

Good intentions are not enough to prevail in federal court. (Philistine's point about absence of state action is well taken.) If this really is a legitimate federal case, can we please hear about other recent cases where federal courts have granted relief of the same type sought here, against non-government actors?

Otherwise, language like "this can all easily go away if the section officers do the right thing," just sounds like legal blackmail--whether it was intended that way or not.

[DanInMI]

Originally Posted by scarlet_woman156k

Dude, what the hell is that crap? Do you honestly think there isn't letter inflation in men as well? Holy crap. I know you aren't trying to sound sexist (for your sake I hope you aren't...otherwise I'm going to have to beat your *** ), but it sure looks that way.

What?
He didn't say anything sexist at all. In fact Txaku is in favor of competing on equal terms with women. Equal terms means that they should have to earn thier ratings the same way. A man may not earn his ratings in a women's tournament, therefore a women should not be allowed to use a rating earned in a women's tournament in a mixed event.There is a very big difference between earning your Rating in a men's or mixed tournament and getting it in a women's tournament. Just as there is a very big difference between getting your ratiing in a Y14 tournament and a senior open tournament.

A while ago there was a thread called "six 12 year olds and one gets an 'E.'" that thread pointed out that perhaps it was not fair that you could earn your rating in a youth tournament. I didn't hear anyone suggest that thread was agist.

[DanInMI]

Originally Posted by edew

"Classifications are just for seeding purposes." Once the initial seeding is done, go fence and do your best.

Uh yeah, duh....
that is exactly the point that Txakurra is making . "Ratings are for seeding purposes."

Here lets say it again slowly "ratings are for seeding purposes."

Nobody would care if they only served as some kind of badge of honor.

If you are a C rated fencer and you are in a "C and under" event you have a big advantage in the pools. It is true that if you are over-rated you still have to beat all those that are rated lower than you....but you also have one less "C" rated fencer to deal with.

I would LOVE to eliminate the highest rated fencer from my pools and replace him with one that is MY rating. I could do that if I could go and aquire a rating an a women's only event and use it in mixed events.

[Peach]

I don't understand why people think it's easier to earn classifications in women's-only events. They are small, for the most part, and underpopulated with the classifications that would make them stronger events for awarding new classifications. Most of the ones I go to are E's. My event in the Mid-Atlantic Sectionals, which draws from several states and you would expect to be outstanding, was a B2 and I think it only earned one woman a D, for which she was way overdue. The rest of the women finished about where they should, with an existing B winning it.

Another point: I admit my A is one-timer (Division I-A) and I'm seeded too high because of it--but I worked hard for that result and on the day I earned it I deserved it, by gum. Not only that, but my results tend to justify maybe a B whether I'm fencing in women's or men's events. It doesn't matter that I get a slightly easier pool.

Finally, as others have repeatedly pointed out, there's only so much the classification will do for results. It's a convenience for seeding. Not too long ago, I was seeded wrongly into an event because the organizer was under the impression I had aged out of my classification. Normally, the two strongest guys would have been in the other pool because they only have B's. I didn't finish any lower than normal--I beat the B male in my pool, ended up running out of gas not because I'm seeded higher than I should be but because I'm 52 and had lifted weights the day before, and came in third, about where I normally do in those events.

[MikeHarm]

I'm of the opinion it should be straight mixed across the board. I love tourneys where you can run into anyone of any background, age or rating.

I do think that a lot of women have trouble fencing guys, but the smarter way to assist would be to hold workshops and seminars to teach women countertime setups to exploit the ways men try to outpower them.

[dreadfoily]

The world is basically falling apart, women in the Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, Women should fence their equals, other women, men and women are not equal. The Buddha said women are better. We should respect these differences and keep the women separate.

How can we women worship men if we beat them at fencing? I dont want to beat men at fencing, I want to beat women at fencing, and then, flex my thighs at the best guy..... pleASE... DON'T take this basic jungle desire away.

"Amazon Woman"