You want to see just how cool the Foil Actions CD is?

[Craig]

With Walter's permission I've cut up one of his pages from the CD-ROM and put it into the site to give a good sample of what's in store.

http://www.fencing101.com/content/view/228/43/

Apologies for those on dial connections - the Quicktime clip is 3MB.



Craig

[DanInMI]

http://www.fencing101.com/vids/media...ng_out_123.mov

for those of us that would save the clip....

[edew]

In this clip, the first action, of course, is simultaneous. But the second action is Vanni's parry riposte. Adam K was just a bit too scared to make that call. The third was Joppich's attack.

[sabreur]

Originally Posted by edew

In this clip, the first action, of course, is simultaneous. But the second action is Vanni's parry riposte. Adam K was just a bit too scared to make that call. The third was Joppich's attack.

Man, I'm glad you saw it that way too--I looked at the clip and I thought, damn, that's a bad call... I would have called it a beat-attack or pris de fer rather than a parry-riposte...

MR

[DanInMI]

Originally Posted by edew

In this clip, the first action, of course, is simultaneous. But the second action is Vanni's parry riposte. Adam K was just a bit too scared to make that call. The third was Joppich's attack.

I saw it that way too.

The third could actually be called two ways however. In the third action Vanni attempts a parry again, and you can hear the blades touch, but i couldn't tell if the parry was successfull, I think not. He misses his repost anyway, his final action is a remise. Either way, touch for Joppich.

[Craig]

Actually, they both step forward, both search for the blade with sweeping action, both find each other's blade, and then both hit. I think he made the right call here.

Either way, the text of the article is very important. Even if you say that the 2nd call was bad, the result is a no-touch call and a new game of paper-rock-scissors. Both fencers tried the same action in the first 2 reps (attack, and then step forward, sweep for blade, and hit) so what's important is the game of tactical progression that occurs in the few seconds between the 2nd action and coming enguard for the 3rd.

You'll notice that Joppich (right) is geared up and ready to go all-out on the 3rd action. He knows what he has to do. Vanni (left) has either mis-read the attack distance, or wasn't really sure what to do for the 3rd action and it costs him.

Craig

[wflaschka]

The doubling-out series has always been interesting for me. Way back in the early 90's a teammate on the sabre squad pointed it out to me (for sabre), as a sort of artifact arising from the priority rules of the time. If one side realizes that the fencers are in the doubling pattern, then they can get an easy touch; if both sides realize at the same time, it gets complicated again. We were at the side of the strip watching the bout, and he was narrating as our 3rd string slowly ground up the other school's lead fencer.

It didn't take too long to see it happening in foil, as well. It shows up at most levels, i.e., at practice last night, where I resolved it w/ simple 2nd intention. Many fencers never perceive it; it's one of those notions that is hard to credit if it's just written down, you have to see it. So the cd-rom has a few such actions under "tactics" in the "Tricks, Tactics and Strategy" section.

The main thing with the doubling out mood is that it's consensual. Both fencers, and the director, tie into it, consciously or not. The second action may have been Vanni's parry, but the director saw the closely matched footwork -- almost identical, down to the stutter steps -- and blade-searching (both sweep, both find, both extend), and perceived a simultaneous. When doubling series resolve, it never seems to be with a squeaker, but always with something that is definitive. (Or, the fencers cool off and disengage from the series.)

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Craig

Actually, they both step forward, both search for the blade with sweeping action, both find each other's blade, and then both hit. I think he made the right call here.

i agree. i see two searches. i'll admit its possible that one started searching first, but the angle and size of the clip doesn't allow me to be able to see it easily enough.


p.s.: thanks for the clip, craig

[fencingguy]

I've got this CD and it's really well done. The clips are well selected and the articles are very informative. I think this is a phonomenal product that FencingFootage has put out. Hearing about actions, or seeing them demonstrated is never the same as seeing them executed in a high pressure, high level bout.

[ztron24]

...this is an awesome cd-rom. it has a zillion clips like this. a wealth of ideas if you're feeling stuck tactically.

[edew]

Adam K is not a gutsy referee. While this one clip shows just one instance, if you get to see the whole bout, there are several more situations where Adam doesn't make the call when it's clearly for one or the other (usually for Vanni).

In the second action of this clip, Joppich made the error of starting with an attack, aborting it and attempting a beat attack. By starting with the attack, he gains right of way. Vanni now has a right to parry. Thus, his parry has precedence over Joppich's beat. And, you can see that Vanni was rather exasperated by the call. And was flustered to flub the subsequent action.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by edew

Adam K is not a gutsy referee. While this one clip shows just one instance, if you get to see the whole bout, there are several more situations where Adam doesn't make the call when it's clearly for one or the other (usually for Vanni).

In the second action of this clip, Joppich made the error of starting with an attack, aborting it and attempting a beat attack. By starting with the attack, he gains right of way. Vanni now has a right to parry. Thus, his parry has precedence over Joppich's beat. And, you can see that Vanni was rather exasperated by the call. And was flustered to flub the subsequent action.

after i saved the file and opened it full screen, i can see the action the way you described it. it is very marginally a parry/riposte. i would probably still call it simul if i were actually directing. but then again, i'll never be directing vanni/joppich so i'm not too worried

another day, another lesson in foil directing

[ShadowHuntr]

on that second action if you are saying attack left, parry riposte right i think you would be incorrect. if that were true, fencer on the right holds the parry anyway so i would attack, parry, no riposte, simul remises

[noodle]

i guess it depends on how you look at the video :P
if you're looking at the video, "right" is on your right, "left" is left.
edew was saying attack from the right, parry/riposte left.

[edew]

Originally Posted by ShadowHuntr

on that second action if you are saying attack left, parry riposte right i think you would be incorrect. if that were true, fencer on the right holds the parry anyway so i would attack, parry, no riposte, simul remises

That would definitely NOT be the call. There's no simultaneous remises, considering that neither made any failed attacks (in order to make the remises).

[edew]

Originally Posted by noodle

i guess it depends on how you look at the video :P
if you're looking at the video, "right" is on your right, "left" is left.
edew was saying attack from the right, parry/riposte left.

To clarify for those who might be misinterpreting this whole thread's right-left orientation relative to the viewer or to the referee, Joppich is on OUR (the viewers') right and Vanni is on OUR (the viewers') left. It's the opposite for the referee.

[dunastor]

Originally Posted by edew

In the second action of this clip, Joppich made the error of starting with an attack, aborting it and attempting a beat attack. By starting with the attack, he gains right of way. Vanni now has a right to parry. Thus, his parry has precedence over Joppich's beat. And, you can see that Vanni was rather exasperated by the call. And was flustered to flub the subsequent action.

I'm sorry, but even after a few times I just can't see any ground for a parry riposte on that clip (with the second action).
Just looks like 2 men searching and hitting to me...

How is it that you see Joppich aborting an attack?

I'm here to learn...