so much anger...

[epeemike81]

Perhaps it is their "best". I also checked out their "store" (how capitalist) and found a book about Bush's lies, but none about Kerry's, or any other democrats ( I guess they don't lie). Doesn't seem balanced to me. Not to a group who wants you to have all the tools you need to "force social change".

This could be like all duelling studies. One college come out with a study "proving" something and before the ink is dry another comes out "proving" the opposite.

Everybody can find a "study" "proving" their side of an argument.

they're citing a study. they didn't DO the study. read the attribution.

-m

[Tireur]

Gallup Poll:

October 08, 2003
Are the News Media Too Liberal?
Forty-five percent of Americans say yes


by Frank Newport and Joseph Carroll

Forty-five percent of Americans believe the news media in this country are too liberal, while only 14% say the news media are too conservative. These perceptions of liberal bias have not changed over the last three years. More generally, a little more than half of Americans have a great deal or fair amount of trust in the news media when it comes to reporting the news fully, accurately, and fairly. Trust in the news media has not changed significantly over the last six years.

[fencingguy]

Gallup Poll:

October 08, 2003
Are the News Media Too Liberal?
Forty-five percent of Americans say yes


by Frank Newport and Joseph Carroll

Forty-five percent of Americans believe the news media in this country are too liberal, while only 14% say the news media are too conservative. These perceptions of liberal bias have not changed over the last three years. More generally, a little more than half of Americans have a great deal or fair amount of trust in the news media when it comes to reporting the news fully, accurately, and fairly. Trust in the news media has not changed significantly over the last six years.

I would attribute this more to the all pervasive howling of the 'right' over the 'liberal bias' in the media rather than an actual bias towards the left. There have been a few studies done that indicate that while there was something of a liberal bias during the 70's the reaction of the news outlets to the criticism of bias has been, if anything, to force them to lean to the right so that they appear to be unbiased.

[Tireur]

So....this wasn't really the opinion of those polled??? Is that what you're saying?

Like the polled I mentioned earlier, where the vast majority of journalists considered themselves "liberal". And, of course, no journalist allows his own bias to filter into his reporting, does he???

[fencingguy]

Sigh, no, that would be assinine. I'm suggesting that their impression is colored by the constant repetition of "left wing bias" that they hear. If you were familiar with statistical sampling and analysis you would be aware that things like priming you sample can have a very strong effect on the outcome of a survey.

Are you suggesting that a survey of random americans and their impression of the news media is an accurate representation of the presence, either way, of bias in the media??? I would certainly hope not considering that people's impressions, particularly in response to questions whose wording we don't know.

Also I never said that their bias doesn't creep in, although you seem to love to hang your hat on that idea. What I did say, was that journalists, in response to criticism of left wing bias, work hard to present themselves in a non biased way, and in many cases are forced to lean to the right to appease the loudest critics.

[Tireur]

They may be leaning to the right of you, but that does not mean to the right of "center". Because, as you have said, you are pretty far left. That does not mean everything to the "right" of you is "right wing".



From the ABC News website:

"Like every other institution, the Washington and political press corps operate with a good number of biases and predilections.

"They include, but are not limited to, a near-universal shared sense that liberal political positions on social issues like gun control, homosexuality, abortion, and religion are the default, while more conservative positions are 'conservative positions.'

[epeemike81]

Gallup Poll:

October 08, 2003
Are the News Media Too Liberal?
Forty-five percent of Americans say yes


by Frank Newport and Joseph Carroll

Forty-five percent of Americans believe the news media in this country are too liberal, while only 14% say the news media are too conservative. These perceptions of liberal bias have not changed over the last three years. More generally, a little more than half of Americans have a great deal or fair amount of trust in the news media when it comes to reporting the news fully, accurately, and fairly. Trust in the news media has not changed significantly over the last six years.

okay. I never said that there wasn't a PERCEIVED liberal bias. in fact, my entire point is that the right has managed to convince the country that there's a liberal bias, while simultaneously controlling larger and larger sections of the media. damned straight americans believe there's a liberal bias. doesn't make it so.

-m

[epeemike81]

They may be leaning to the right of you, but that does not mean to the right of "center". Because, as you have said, you are pretty far left. That does not mean everything to the "right" of you is "right wing".

actually, it's me who said that, not fencingguy.

From the ABC News website:

"Like every other institution, the Washington and political press corps operate with a good number of biases and predilections.

"They include, but are not limited to, a near-universal shared sense that liberal political positions on social issues like gun control, homosexuality, abortion, and religion are the default, while more conservative positions are 'conservative positions.'

and this would be exactly the type of repeated accusation that fencingguy was saying (rightly so) can convince the American public of something.

Again, I suggest that you do not have a realistic sense of your own position on the political spectrum.

here, quick survey:
1) Abortion:
a) pro-life
b) pro choice?

2) Gun Control:
a) Nobody should be able to own a gun, except for licensed law enforcement/security/military professionals
b) People should have a right to protect themselves, but not to own Assault Rifles
c) People should have a right to own any weapon they want after a background chekc
d) No background check or any other type of regulation on the right to bear arms.

3) Patriot Act:
a) Yes. it is necessary to give up civil liberties to ensure our safety.
b) No. "those who are willing to give up essential liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." (name that quote!)

4) Iraq War:
a) Yes
b) No

5) Is Bush a good President:
a) Yes
b) No

6) Was Clinton a good President:
a) Yes
b) No

7) Death Penalty:
a) Yes
b) No

8) Gay Marriage:
a) Yes, same sex couples should have the right to marry. it is immoral and illegal to discriminate against citizens of this country based on sexual orientation.
b) Marriage means a man and a woman, but homosexuals should be allowed the legal benefits thereof in civil unions
c) Marriage means a union between a man and a woman, and thus single gender couples have no rights relating to it.

9) How many Republicans have you voted for? (please estimate)

10) How many Democrats have you voted for? (please estimate)

[adidas33k]

Here is a link to the actual study on Fox news. I haven't gone through and read all of it myself yet, so I don't have an opinion on how well it was done. But this way we're all not just reading the article about it, and can make up our own minds

http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Ir..._03_Report.pdf

[Tireur]

my entire point is that the right has managed to convince the country that there's a liberal bias.
-m

Wow, I thought the liberal majority was too smart to have the wool pulled over their eyes, by a few stupid conservatives.

[jeff]

Perhaps it is their "best". I also checked out their "store" (how capitalist) and found a book about Bush's lies, but none about Kerry's, or any other democrats

That's the price of incumbency. Until becoming the Democrat front-runner, Kerry wasn't a big enough target, while any sitting president certainly is. Outside NPR, the many books by O'Reilly, Hannity, Coulter, Savage &etc certainly show there are plenty of books in the marketplace to smear prominent Dems.

The real left wing press: eg, the Village Voice already has published tracts about how Kerry has turned too right-wing.

Smearing is multilateral and intramural too (look at how Bush's side smeared McCain as a loony during their pre-2000 primaries). Maybe that's why our best and brightest don't really want to be in politics.

[Tireur]

OK, without having a lot of time to read the thing right now, this jumps out at me.

"Misperceptions About World Opinion"

How do they determine what "World Opinion" is, in order to determine whether or not it is perceived incorrectly? Do they use specific "National Leaders" or have they somehow divined a way to calculate what most of the people in the world actually think?

Is it the opinion of Jacques Chirac and Vladimir Putin, perhaps the directors of the UN "Food for Oil" directors, a few hundred thousand protestors or the pipa directors?

[Tireur]

Maybe that's why our best and brightest don't really want to be in politics.

Bingo, plus other characters to make the post long enuf

[adidas33k]

They used two Gallup international polls and one poll done by Pew Research center (this is all on page 8 btw). All told samples from 56 countries were polled between the three. That's the basics, like I said the rest in on page 8 of the study.

[epeemike81]

Wow, I thought the liberal majority was too smart to have the wool pulled over their eyes, by a few stupid conservatives.

who said anything about a liberal majority??

-m

[epeemike81]

OK, without having a lot of time to read the thing right now, this jumps out at me.

"Misperceptions About World Opinion"

How do they determine what "World Opinion" is, in order to determine whether or not it is perceived incorrectly? Do they use specific "National Leaders" or have they somehow divined a way to calculate what most of the people in the world actually think?

In the run up to the war, many polls were done of world opinion. they all indicate that the vast majority of the world's population opposed the US invasion. Additionally, polls in the countries which were our allies (most notably Britain and Spain) revealed that despite the views of their leaders, most of their populations were opposed to war. Apparently we'll put you down in the "at least one misperception" category.

And they didn't quite need to "divine" a way. statistical sampling has existed for quite a long time, and a relatively small sample (as long as truly random) can give a VERY accurate read (I can give you the error equations, if you like, but I think that might be kinda boring).

still waiting for your response to my brief survey, btw.

-m

[epeemike81]

They used two Gallup international polls and one poll done by Pew Research center (this is all on page 8 btw). All told samples from 56 countries were polled between the three. That's the basics, like I said the rest in on page 8 of the study.

and it should be noted that the results in the Islamic world (that the majority "oppose US-Led efforts to fight terrorism") are despite the favorable wording. "efforts to fight terrorism" is likely to engender more support than, for example, "policy toward Iraq," or some such statement.

-m

[Tireur]

statistical sampling has existed for quite a long time, and a relatively small sample (as long as truly random) can give a VERY accurate read (I can give you the error equations, if you like, but I think that might be kinda boring).

still waiting for your response to my brief survey, btw.-m

So, the vast majority of journalists in the survey I mentioned must be a VERY accurate read.

Sorry, I didn't realize you were asking those of me specifically.

Unfortunatley some questions lack the option of nuanced answers, which liberals seem to love above simple yes and no.


1: B, Pro-Choice, with 1 limitation, I don't believe people should use it as
birth control. (oops, oh, it's ok, I'll just get an abortion)

2: C is the closest of the choices to my opinion. I waiver on the "any
weapon" part though. Haven't given much thought to the extent.

3: No clear answer here. I have no problem giving up some "liberties"
At least temporarily. I don't believe our liberty is at stake as much as
some alarmists seem to. I guess you could compare those with the
more extreme elements of the NRA.

4: Yes

5: Yes and No

6: No and Yes

7: Yes

8: I don't feel strongly about it either way.

9: 4

10: 3

[Schiavona]

actually, it's me who said that, not fencingguy.


and this would be exactly the type of repeated accusation that fencingguy was saying (rightly so) can convince the American public of something.

Both sides do this. Makes me sick. The Big Lie tactic.

Again, I suggest that you do not have a realistic sense of your own position on the political spectrum.

Political or social? Or have the lines become too blurred?

here, quick survey:
1) Abortion:
a) pro-life
b) pro choice?

2) Gun Control:
a) Nobody should be able to own a gun, except for licensed law enforcement/security/military professionals
b) People should have a right to protect themselves, but not to own Assault Rifles
c) People should have a right to own any weapon they want after a background chekc
d) No background check or any other type of regulation on the right to bear arms.

3) Patriot Act:
a) Yes. it is necessary to give up civil liberties to ensure our safety.
b) No. "those who are willing to give up essential liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." (name that quote!)

4) Iraq War:
a) Yes
b) No

5) Is Bush a good President:
a) Yes
b) No

6) Was Clinton a good President:
a) Yes
b) No

7) Death Penalty:
a) Yes
b) No

8) Gay Marriage:
a) Yes, same sex couples should have the right to marry. it is immoral and illegal to discriminate against citizens of this country based on sexual orientation.
b) Marriage means a man and a woman, but homosexuals should be allowed the legal benefits thereof in civil unions
c) Marriage means a union between a man and a woman, and thus single gender couples have no rights relating to it.

9) How many Republicans have you voted for? (please estimate)

10) How many Democrats have you voted for? (please estimate)

I've said this before, I've come to believe that the terms liberal and conservative are meaningless in reguards to what the vast majority of Americans believe in. What makes you feel you're a liberal?

This is what I invision when I hear the term liberal, 'I believe that people don't know how to take care of themselves, so the government should arrange their messy little lives for them.'

This is what I invision when I hear the term conservative, 'Well Big Business is good for America, so what Business wants, Business gets! Of course religon is Business too-keeps those pesky workers happy!'

So, I know the above ideas are simplistic and taken from extreme ends of both 'camps', but they pretty much represent what goes through my mind when I hear 'conservative' and 'liberal'.

Where do I fit in? I don't belong in either camps. Amusingly enough, I do believe that the majority of Americans are in the political limbo that I'm in and vote for what we believe are the lesser of two evils. I cite the membership numbers of both parties as evidence of my position.

[Inquartata]

I would attribute this more to the all pervasive howling of the 'right' over the 'liberal bias' in the media rather than an actual bias towards the left.

Over the past few years I have heard and read far more "howling" about the right-wing nature of Fox and the monolpoly of ultraconservatives on talk radio and so forth than I have about liberal bias. In fact, the former are usually produced triumphantly as refutation every time anyone so much as suggests the possibility of a liberal bias anywhere, anyhow....

So---why haven't the sheep, er, I mean people been duped into believing that conservative bias is rampant, rather than the other way 'round?