Gay Games

[hpfencing]

I motion to close this thread or create another one in the water cooler section because this has gone quickly from a serious fencing query to people throwing moral opinions around!

I'm saorry if my view offend people. If I were to go to the gay games or tell my fencers about it I would have parents upset and worried. I am not slamming all gay people. I've simply stated; from a coaches viewpoint, I cannot and wouldn't attend regardless of where it was or when.

Anyway could someone please close this post....

[D'Artagnan1673]

I motion to close this thread or create another one in the water cooler section because this has gone quickly from a serious fencing query to people throwing moral opinions around!

I'm saorry if my view offend people. If I were to go to the gay games or tell my fencers about it I would have parents upset and worried. I am not slamming all gay people. I've simply stated; from a coaches viewpoint, I cannot and wouldn't attend regardless of where it was or when.

Anyway could someone please close this post....

Nah, don't close the thread , just move it to the water cooler.

[labouche]

I will be more than happy to stop calling people bigots, just as soon as they stop making bigoted statements, like equating homosexuality to pedophelia. there is a MASSIVE difference between what goes on between two consenting adults and molesting a child, regardless of whether or not you believe homoesexuality to be acceptable. This is like equating premarital sex to rape.

Ok, first, it seems that everyone on this board has been seriously misreading me. I never said that I hate homosexuals, that i think they should be killed, or even that homosexality should be made illegal. I mearly stated that it is wrong and the government should not embrace it. This means their should not be civil unions between two people of the same sex, however i'm not saying homosexuals should be arrested if ever caught in the act........no more than a child should be arrested for disrespecting his parents.
Again, my statements are bigoted only in accordance to what is accepted in society. Australia recently turned over civil union, making it illegal. Does that mean they are bigots? Or, are they not bigots becuase it is accepted in their society that homosexuality is not right?
In refference to pedophilia, I was talking about a consenting "child", not child molestation. Take for instance a 40-year old and a 13-year old. Personally i think that is grose, but it has been accepted in the past in other civilizations. Thus, was it right in the past and isn't right now only because society has deemed it "wrong"?
BTW, this is the definition of a "bigot" in the Websters dictionary: Bigot-"a person who is extremely intolerant of another's creed, belief, or opinion."
If I am being a bigot for saying that homosexuality is wrong, then fine...let me be bigot. However, I find it very ironic that the whole world is attacking Bible-believing christians because of what they believe to be wrong, calling them bigots, and in doing so, they are being very "intolerant" of what I believe. So, maybe everyone is a bigot.......
-Elijah

[telkanuru]

Um... In reference to homosexuality and pedophilia, I have already responded to your points. I'm not going to again. Go back, read, and don't waste my time. And not all bible-believing christians agree with you, and since over 1 billion people are such, I find it hard to believe that the who world is attacking them.

[labouche]

ah, and here in lies the crux of the argument: society doesn't have (and shouldn't have) universial truths. this is the entire idea of pluralism! just because YOU think homosexuality is wrong shouldn't bind the rest of society. What I don't understand is how the Christian right can rail against Sharia in Islamic countries and how horrible it is to enforce Muslim moral codes on people, and at the same time try to enforce Christian moral codes on people in this country. there's no difference!! Call it what it is: the Christian equivalent of the Taliban (before I get all sorts of angry responses saying that I'm equating Jerry Falwell with Osama, please note I said the equivalent of the TALIBAN, not Al Quaeda. they're repressive, not terrorists.).

-m

Oh c'mon. Think about what you are saying. Really the only people who aren't "pushing" their viewpoints on other people are agnostics who simply state they have no idea, and don't even get into such issues. I mean honestly, i could say you are trying to push you liberal views on me, or the media is trying to spread their view points on the world. Anyone that is has set beliefs is going to try to convince other people why their beliefs are correct. Yes, some people are too aggressive or forceful about it, but you find this in every group of people. Ever heard of Richard Dawkins? He is a zoologist (i think?) and one of the leading evolutionists today. I could allow myself to get offended as he viciously attacks christians, but I don't because well......it's kinda pointless. What does somewhat offend me is when people call me a close minded bigot because of my beliefs....
-Elijah

[CvilleFencer]

Okay, just to clear up the lexicon of our hopelessly un-winable debate, a Pedophile is someone who is very strongly sexually attracted to prepubescent youths. Figure 11 and down. Secondly the huge majority of convicted pedophiles count themselves as heterosexual.

Lebouche, if you are suggesting that someone not old enough to walk home from the bus stop by themselves can chose to engage in a sexual relationship you are just a bit nuts. Maybe you should explore Nambla or the Lewis Carroll Foundation.

Others have put this more verbosely and eloquently elsewhere on this thread but I will say again that pedophilia is considered a crime for the very reason that the victims are not old or developed enough to form and opinion on the issue. I think even most of those in favor of a lower age of consent would agree that oh, say 8 or 9 is a little to young to have sex with.

[D'Artagnan1673]

Oh c'mon. Think about what you are saying. Really the only people who aren't "pushing" their viewpoints on other people are agnostics who simply state they have no idea, and don't even get into such issues. I mean honestly, i could say you are trying to push you liberal views on me, or the media is trying to spread their view points on the world. Anyone that is has set beliefs is going to try to convince other people why their beliefs are correct. Yes, some people are too aggressive or forceful about it, but you find this in every group of people. Ever heard of Richard Dawkins? He is a zoologist (i think?) and one of the leading evolutionists today. I could allow myself to get offended as he viciously attacks christians, but I don't because well......it's kinda pointless. What does somewhat offend me is when people call me a close minded bigot because of my beliefs....
-Elijah

Labouche,

If you are a Christian, and you are standing up for your views, expect for people to revile you and say all manners of evil against you.

[labouche]

And not all bible-believing christians agree with you, and since over 1 billion people are such, I find it hard to believe that the who world is attacking them.

Note the "Bible-believing" in the words "Bible-believing". Yes, their are "christians" who say the Bible doesn't say homosexuality is wrong, but I wouldn't exactly say they are "Bible believing" christians. But, that's off-topic anyway........

[D'Artagnan1673]

Note the "Bible-believing" in the words "Bible-believing". Yes, their are "christians" who say the Bible doesn't say homosexuality is wrong, but I wouldn't exactly say they are "Bible believing" christians. But, that's off-topic anyway........

Those who profess Christianity and say that the Bible does not condemn homosexual behavior are, IMO, putting scripture under judgement, and not sitting under the judgement of scripture.

[epeemike81]

In refference to pedophilia, I was talking about a consenting "child", not child molestation.

this is an oxymoron. children (i.e. those below age of consent) cannot consent. this is clearly a good idea, since when a pedophile says to an eight year old "let's play a game. you like games, don't you?" the eight year old doesn't understand the weight of what's going on. nor, for that matter, does the thirteen year old, though they may understand the actual acts proposed.

it's illegal because they CAN'T consent.

-m

[epeemike81]

Oh c'mon. Think about what you are saying. Really the only people who aren't "pushing" their viewpoints on other people are agnostics who simply state they have no idea, and don't even get into such issues. I mean honestly, i could say you are trying to push you liberal views on me, or the media is trying to spread their view points on the world. Anyone that is has set beliefs is going to try to convince other people why their beliefs are correct. Yes, some people are too aggressive or forceful about it, but you find this in every group of people. Ever heard of Richard Dawkins? He is a zoologist (i think?) and one of the leading evolutionists today. I could allow myself to get offended as he viciously attacks christians, but I don't because well......it's kinda pointless. What does somewhat offend me is when people call me a close minded bigot because of my beliefs....
-Elijah

actually, note that I'm not trying to convince you that homosexuality is okay. I'm simply pointing out that just because you don't believe it is, that shouldn't have bearing on others. you believe what you want, I'll believe what I want, and anybody can do whatever they want with whomever they choose as long as they are both consenting adults.

-m

[epeemike81]

Those who profess Christianity and say that the Bible does not condemn homosexual behavior are, IMO, putting scripture under judgement, and not sitting under the judgement of scripture.

true, but this is frequently done and accepted in christianity as it relates to old testament scripture. Christians don't believe, for example, that it is wrong to touch the skin of a pig (Leviticus 11:7). They don't believe it's okay to sell a child into slavery, as sanctioned by Exodus 21:7, or that people should be put to death for working on the Sabbath. Christians no longer believe that people need be stoned for planting different crops side by side, nor burnt for wearing garments of two threads. Why don't they believe that? the leaders of the church have judged (rightly) that these passages, while acceptable at the time (debateably), are not applicable to the modern world, and have thus called them "tradition" instead of word. so, ultimately, what is it that keeps Christians believing that homosexuality is wrong? it's not that it's in the bible, but rather that the viewpoints of leaders haven't changed yet. it is man, not God, making that determination.

-m

[D'Artagnan1673]

actually, note that I'm not trying to convince you that homosexuality is okay. I'm simply pointing out that just because you don't believe it is, that shouldn't have bearing on others. you believe what you want, I'll believe what I want, and anybody can do whatever they want with whomever they choose as long as they are both consenting adults.

-m

Okay Mike,

There is a reason why Christians should inform people why they believe homosexuality is wrong. In the gospel of John, Jesus said that he didn't come to Earth with his own message, but to preach the message of him who sent him, that being God. When a Christian, in brotherly love, tells a person that they are in sin, they aren't judging that person, the Bible does that. The Christian is making the sinner aware of their error. The sermon yesterday actually mentioned some great references in Ezekial which states that a Christian is under obligation to tell people of their sins.

If I had a friend who professed faith in Christ but continued in their sin, whatever that may be, I am under obligation out of love and concern for that person to show them from the scriptures where they are in error. Contrary to many "Christian Lite" churches that teach that you just have to come down the alter, sign a card and you are in, the Bible teaches that salvation is not that easy. Then again, it is. Salvation is through grace, through faith. Works is no part of salvation, so evangelicals say. Works are a result of saving faith. Therefore, if you have no good works, you do not have saving faith. Refer to the book of James for more clarification.

Back to my story. If someone claims they are saved but are still living in open sin, then I must question their salvation, for the Bible says that no murders, *****mongerers, liars, theives etc. will ever enter into the kingdom of God. Romans 6 says we are a new creation in Christ. The old man is gone. The old things are put away. Now the rest of Ch. 6&7 point out that no one will be perfect until Christ's return, but our desires will be to put away our sin and live a life of holiness (sanctification).

So, my point is that if someone claims they are saved, but feel no remorse for their sinful live, then there is reason to believe that the person is in a state of delusion. They think they are saved, but they are on the road to hell. If you sent your friend off down a road and knew that there was a pit in the road that you wouldn't see until you were right on it, would you allow them to drive down the road to their death? The same way with this. You would not willingly let someone perish spiritually either.

[D'Artagnan1673]

true, but this is frequently done and accepted in christianity as it relates to old testament scripture. Christians don't believe, for example, that it is wrong to touch the skin of a pig (Leviticus 11:7). They don't believe it's okay to sell a child into slavery, as sanctioned by Exodus 21:7, or that people should be put to death for working on the Sabbath. Christians no longer believe that people need be stoned for planting different crops side by side, nor burnt for wearing garments of two threads. Why don't they believe that? the leaders of the church have judged (rightly) that these passages, while acceptable at the time (debateably), are not applicable to the modern world, and have thus called them "tradition" instead of word. so, ultimately, what is it that keeps Christians believing that homosexuality is wrong? it's not that it's in the bible, but rather that the viewpoints of leaders haven't changed yet. it is man, not God, making that determination.

-m

Mike,

I see where you are coming from, to an extent. I agree that these points of the law are no longer applicable. However, I believe that they became no longer applicable from passages in the New Testiment, not post apostlic church fathers interpretation of the scriptures. Scripture judges us, not us the scriptures.

[epeemike81]

Mike,

I see where you are coming from, to an extent. I agree that these points of the law are no longer applicable. However, I believe that they became no longer applicable from passages in the New Testiment, not post apostlic church fathers interpretation of the scriptures. Scripture judges us, not us the scriptures.

okay, please cite said passages.

-m

[D'Artagnan1673]

okay, please cite said passages.

-m

Looking for them right now.

[CvilleFencer]

*edit* Doo! You guys beat me to the bible quoting while I was looking up some favorites. I must type really slow... *end edit*

Uh guys, taking the bible literaly as a moral compase can get you into some trouble as it is a book filled with justification for doing horrible things to anyone that is differant than you or does not agree with you. Some of my favorites are below. The Bible on...

The daughter of a priest that has pre-marital sex:
“And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the *****, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire” (Leviticus 21:9)

Kids who disobey their parents:
“And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death” (Exodus 21:17)

"And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die" (Deuteronomy 21:20-21).

Women on their period:
“And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness (her menstral cycle), and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people” (Leviticus 20:18)

Marring divorced women:
“Whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery; and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery” (Matthew 5:32).

Unmanly men, people who have sex, who drink a bit to much etc.
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

A child born out of wedlock:
"A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord: even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord" (Deuteronomy 23:2).

Raping virgins (Who are not married) you come across in the hills:
"If a man finds a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days Deuteronomy 22:28-29

Streeking in public is ok though:
“At the same time spake the Lord by Isaiah the son of Amoz, saying, Go and loose the sackcloth from off thy loins, and put off thy shoe from thy foot. And he did so, walking naked and barefoot. And the Lord said, Like as my servant Isaiah hath walked naked and barefoot three years for a sign and wonder upon Egypt and upon Ethiopia” (Isaiah 20:2-3)


Anyone who disagrees with/does not follow Christain ideology
“He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed” (Exodus 22:20). “If thou shalt hear say . . . Certain men . . . saying, Let us go and serve other gods . . . Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword” (Deuteronomy 13:12-15). “That whosoever would not seek the Lord God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman” (2 Chronicles 15:13). “And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak . . . because thou believest not my words” (Luke 1:20). “And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost” (Acts 12:23). “But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me” (Luke 19:27).

I could go on but hopefully the point is taken? The basic tenants of the new testiment and the bible are fine, and if you adhear to them you will be a good and decent member of society. If you get lost in the minutia you will miss the point, which could best be summed up by "With love of mankind do what you will so long as it harms no other".

[epeemike81]

Okay Mike,

There is a reason why Christians should inform people why they believe homosexuality is wrong. In the gospel of John, Jesus said that he didn't come to Earth with his own message, but to preach the message of him who sent him, that being God. When a Christian, in brotherly love, tells a person that they are in sin, they aren't judging that person, the Bible does that. The Christian is making the sinner aware of their error. The sermon yesterday actually mentioned some great references in Ezekial which states that a Christian is under obligation to tell people of their sins.

If I had a friend who professed faith in Christ but continued in their sin, whatever that may be, I am under obligation out of love and concern for that person to show them from the scriptures where they are in error. Contrary to many "Christian Lite" churches that teach that you just have to come down the alter, sign a card and you are in, the Bible teaches that salvation is not that easy. Then again, it is. Salvation is through grace, through faith. Works is no part of salvation, so evangelicals say. Works are a result of saving faith. Therefore, if you have no good works, you do not have saving faith. Refer to the book of James for more clarification.

Back to my story. If someone claims they are saved but are still living in open sin, then I must question their salvation, for the Bible says that no murders, *****mongerers, liars, theives etc. will ever enter into the kingdom of God. Romans 6 says we are a new creation in Christ. The old man is gone. The old things are put away. Now the rest of Ch. 6&7 point out that no one will be perfect until Christ's return, but our desires will be to put away our sin and live a life of holiness (sanctification).

So, my point is that if someone claims they are saved, but feel no remorse for their sinful live, then there is reason to believe that the person is in a state of delusion. They think they are saved, but they are on the road to hell. If you sent your friend off down a road and knew that there was a pit in the road that you wouldn't see until you were right on it, would you allow them to drive down the road to their death? The same way with this. You would not willingly let someone perish spiritually either.

Last time I checked, that proverbial road was paved with good intentions. good intentions like "informing sinners of their errors." regardless of the intent it is judging. that said, if you truly, as you say, reserve this for professed christians, then I don't have an issue with it. what I really can't stomach, from ANY faith, is prosletyzing.

-m

[D'Artagnan1673]

You know your Old Testiment well, Civille. There is God's perfect and righteous law. There are only a few that you mentioned that I was unaware of, the books of the prophets can be tedious. The New Testiment states that believers should be under the jurisdiction of our governments. Therefore, I will follow the laws of the land and be Biblical. God had his reasons for putting those laws in his perfect word.

[D'Artagnan1673]

Last time I checked, that proverbial road was paved with good intentions. good intentions like "informing sinners of their errors." regardless of the intent it is judging. that said, if you truly, as you say, reserve this for professed christians, then I don't have an issue with it. what I really can't stomach, from ANY faith, is prosletyzing.

-m

Well, I should certainly tell this to professed Christians. But what of the rest of the world, those who do not believe? To them, the message is not you are going to hell because you are homosexual, but you are going to hell because you have not kept God's commandments perfectly and you are therefore under condemnation and will feel God's wrath in the life to come unless you repent of your sins and put your faith in Jesus. That is it in a nutshell, but it should certainly be done with a little more love and caring than stated above.

I understand that there is an ultra conservative whoose name eludes me that goes to the funerals of homosexuals and displayes all sorts of horid banners saying how homosexuals are all going to hell!!! As if they are going to hell any more than other sinners