Amateur vs Professional for Fencing

[Grey]

Having read a book which touched on defination amateur and professionals in the Olympics... How many of you here are amateur or professional fencers? And if you are an amateur fencer, would you want to progress to be a professional fencer? Also, do include why you would prefer being an amateur or professional fencer.

ps : Its some controversies I ran over...

[Inquartata]

Amateur...and given the recent experiences of "professional fencing" i'm not sure I'd consider becoming a professional to be "progress"...

[Schiavona]

Amateur, as in 'for the love of it'.

So, does professional mean you derive your livelihood from fencing or just fence 40+ hours a week?

[Artisan]

The only professional fencers I know of are those fencers who get paid to coach. Since FIE prohibits professionals... it puts the kibash on professionals competing at world level.

Oh, then there are the book writing, theatrical choreographing classisists...but they don't "compete" yet someone seems to pay for their products

There are people who ONLY fence that have perhaps state-funded jobs that require little official time. I'm thinking of eastern block europeans: and cubans...

[Grey]

Amateur athlete is defined as someone taking part in the sport "for the love of the sport" and taking no cash nor money for being in the sport. An example will be, being paid money to coach, being paid to be in the sport, etc. If you're paid in any form money, to be in the sport, you're considered a professional.

In other words, FIE prohibits professionals from competitions? Professional in a sense also refers to "deriving your livelihood from fencing".

Inquartata, could you elaborate more on the recent experiences of "professional fencing"?

In that case, as for world championships, olympic champions... are they professionals or are they simply "amateurs"? Similarly, Aldo Nadi was considered an Amateur when he fenced at the Olympics at 1920?

[Katman]

Amateur athlete is defined as someone taking part in the sport "for the love of the sport" and taking no cash nor money for being in the sport. An example will be, being paid money to coach, being paid to be in the sport, etc. If you're paid in any form money, to be in the sport, you're considered a professional.

In other words, FIE prohibits professionals from competitions? Professional in a sense also refers to "deriving your livelihood from fencing".

Inquartata, could you elaborate more on the recent experiences of "professional fencing"?

In that case, as for world championships, olympic champions... are they professionals or are they simply "amateurs"? Similarly, Aldo Nadi was considered an Amateur when he fenced at the Olympics at 1920?

Haa. According to part of that definition then, I'm a professional fencer.

I consider myself amateur though, because I do it for the 'love of the sport' and I'm nowhere near making my living off of fencing.

[DHCJr]

The term professional in sports is a farce in some ways. Before 'Professionals' were allowed to compete in the Olympics, there were professionals competing in the Olympics. What 'Professional' meant was NBA. You could be on, let us say, one of the Italian professional teams and compete in the Olympics.

The same is true for Fencing. For example, the Soviets were professionals. Their job was fencing. To hide the fact they might be given a job title, but what they did every day was practice. The US has started giving money for results. That has been going on in Europe for far longer than I have been involved with fencing. The Olympics is big business. It is no longer for amateurs, no matter how we wish it.

[gojujay]

The Olympics is big business. It is no longer for amateurs, no matter how we wish it.

Too true... is it any wonder Olympic interest is declining

[Inquartata]

Inquartata, could you elaborate more on the recent experiences of "professional fencing"?

There have been at least two recent attempts to form professional fencing leagues or circuits. One went down in ignominious flames due to, er, let us be tactful and say "mismanagement". The other just seemed to fade into nonexistence for want of participation, this probably due to experiences with the first experiment...

This IMO is yet another argument against attempts to bring lots of money and attention to fencing: those things attract thieves, charlatans and con men all too readily. A reputation for which the sport doesn't need.

[Grey]

I read the definations off a book on the Olympics, so the definations may not be exactly accurate. I apologise if theres any misunderstanding. What then is the big difference between being an Amateur Fencer or Professional Fencer? Doesn't being a professional yield more benefits and help you progress further by letting you concentrate your efforts fully on fencing?

[Artisan]

I read the definations off a book on the Olympics, so the definations may not be exactly accurate. I apologise if theres any misunderstanding. What then is the big difference between being an Amateur Fencer or Professional Fencer? Doesn't being a professional yield more benefits and help you progress further by letting you concentrate your efforts fully on fencing?

I still don't think you've clarified the distinction between "amateur" vs. amateur and "professional" vs. professional.

Is there such a thing as an officially "professional" fencer?
If there is, I'd like to find out more about it - where / who /how does this type of fencing occur?

I guess my point is...if you become or call yourself a "Professional Fencer", then who and where will you fence?
Where on the globe are "professional" fencing bouts being contested?

IF you apply the criteria for boxing its a lot less hazy: Cash prize for winner = professional. In Aldo Nadi's day, professional bouts were organized much like in boxing, one on one, before a paying audience, often for national bragging rights. Then again, the NCAA has plenty of rules to clearly delineate the difference - and yet in football and basketball the difference is still murkey when looked at from a certain perspective (as in: many are not really students either).

There are a handfull of USFA sanctioned tournaments in the USA with "Cash" awards for the winners / finalists. I say "CASH" because the award is usually presented in the form of reimbursement for travel expenses or equipment. This is to satisfy the USFA amateurism requirement. In some cases the winner may accept the prize in the name of their NCAA school, and donate the funds to their school's program in order to satisfy the NCAA's amateurism requirement.

At the Duel in the Desert, the $1000 prize is awarded as casino chips, which I suppose satisfies the USFA since chips aren't legal tender, even though all one has to do is walk downstairs and cash them in for face value. Apparently that didn't matter to Mattern's USFA or Olympic eligibility.

When Jeff Snyder won the ill fated "Swordmasters Series" event, the cash prize didn't seem to hamper his eligibility at USFA NAC's, so I suspect that USFA tends to interpret their own "amateurism" rules rather librally.

[Prometheus]

The USFA defines professionals as

"fencers who receive cash prizes for placement in competition."

The USFA policy on professionals can be found at www.usfa.org
Documents --> USFA Policy Documents --> USFA Policy on professionals

(all paraphrased or copied)
According to the website professionals are currently restricted from Individual nationals and qualification path events. This is however under review chiefly because

- The FIE awards cash prizes at its events.

- Professionals now compete in the Olympics when permitted by their national federation.


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As far as de facto professional, the US military also did or does have an elite athlete training program. If I remember correctly when Ali was drafted the military essentially said that all he would have to do is train for boxing and wear a uniform every now and then. His refusal of that proposal is an interesting bit of sports history, but not entirely relevant.

[DHCJr]

That is the same as the pot calling the kettle black. Not only does the FIE (especially if you are wearing a visor mask) give out monetary award, there is another group that gives out monitary awards to fencers based on International results.

That group is the USFA!

[neevel]

That is the same as the pot calling the kettle black. Not only does the FIE (especially if you are wearing a visor mask) give out monetary award, there is another group that gives out monitary awards to fencers based on International results.

That group is the USFA!

Oh, noooo... did you have to give Inq. an opening to get started on this again?

[Inquartata]

Oh, noooo... did you have to give Inq. an opening to get started on this again?

"Urge to kill...building..."

[oiuyt]

The Olympics do not ban professionals. The FIE does not ban professionals. The USFA (despite the policy that can still be easily found on the website) does not ban professionals. The FIE and USFA offer cash incentives for certain performances.

This issue came up at the USFA BoD meeting last July when someone (I forget who) asked for the issue to be revisted and have the ban removed, or at least clarified/modified. The Exceutive Committee and rest of the BoD was adamant that the USFA does not have such a ban any longer, and indeed, could not create such a ban now given that the FIE does not have such a ban (apparently there's some rule about not being more restrictive than the FIE that somehow applies although this was not made particularly clear at the time). The BoD declined to take official action because there already was no such USFA ban and it was decided that public emphasis of the lack of such a ban might lead people who otherwise shouldn't take money (anyone who wants to continue to comply with NCAA or most HS regulations) to do so. When I mentioned the existance of the (old and, at this point, publically disavowed) policy on the website (as cited by Prometheus) I was told that it wasn't still there. When I insisted that it was I was told that it didn't matter because it was no longer in effect and would be removed. I haven't gone looking for it again, but I would assume that Prometheus has just seen it and that it's still available.

Artisan- Jeff didn't win, Arne Backes won. Jeff took 2nd. Arne has also subsequently fenced in a NAC (Palm Springs).

Another note: Both the PFL and the SMS (the two professional leagues cited by Inq.) were started and run by the same person. Unsurprisingly the SMS was viewed with some scepticism after the results of the PFL. It seems to have lived up to that scepticism quite well.

-B :)

[DHCJr]

oiuyt, that was very informative. If you go again, you might take the 'Current' Operations manual, starting on page 48. The problem is current versionis a relative term, September 2000.

You wouldn't be talking about a short little coach, who is now in Las Vegas, and has been unanimously banned from collegiate fencing in Southern California and has a habit of suing anyone who says negative things about him.

[oiuyt]

K, I just went to look up the minutes from the BoD meeting. Here's what was officially put into the record:

5. Motion regarding amateurism and prize money at competitions.

MOTION: Resolved that because the USFA has adopted the FIE's standards on amateurism and because the FIE no longer restricts the award of prizes in fencing competitions, prizes may be awarded at USFA sanctioned events.

All fencers are advised to use care and caution in participating in competitions in which prizes (either economic or in kind) are offered, as other organizations to which USFA members may belong or be subject (such as the NCAA and state scholastic athletic associations) have rules and standards that may differ from those of the USFA, the violation of which may result in penalties, exclusion, loss of eligibility or other sanctions by such organizations.

Discussion ensued and the Board suuports the adherence to the FIE policy. Also it was suggested by Mr. D'Asaro that this information be communicated in appropriate USFA vehicles such as the newsletter or website.

Because this was a first hearing item no vote would normally be taken. While not explicitly mentioned in the minutes, I remember a sense being expressed that such a motion was redundant and therefore unnecesary given that the USFA already allowed professionals to compete. In any case the motion was not resubmitted for a second hearing at the subsequent BoD meeting (or rather at either of the subsequent meetings) and hasn't formally been voted on.

-B :)

[Artisan]

Artisan- Jeff didn't win, Arne Backes won. Jeff took 2nd. Arne has also subsequently fenced in a NAC (Palm Springs).

-B

Thank you for the clarification on the FIE and USFA rules as well as the SMS winner. I will get Arne to buy me beer with his winnings.