-
-
Senior Member
Array 
be careful how you say there wont be any more flicking. the rules will NOT remove flicking entirely, basically the only flicks it will get rid off are what I like to call "bs flicks" ones that wouldnt actually do anything to you in a real life duel. these would be little glancing shots off your shoulder and whatnot. a decent flick will still register as demonstrated by some of the posts on the photo gallery. "When my time on earth is gone, and my activies here are passed. I want they bury me upside-down, and my critics can kiss me @$$."
-Bobby Knight
-
Fencing Expert
Array 
Whips vs Flicks Flicking and whipping -- the jury is still out whether the box-timing changes will make the flick impossible, or merely just improbable. Rolls and Edew have both posted their experiences with the new timing; the future doesn't look bright for whips, but there may be a way to salvage flicks.
Whips: Whips rely on the flexibility of the blade. When making a whip, the fencer stiffens the wrist so it doesn't bend, and makes a sort of fly-casting motion that originates from the elbow. The elbow doesn't unbend very far, but rather only opens far enough to get the blade moving quickly. Then the fencer stops the arm suddenly, and the energy in the blade, coupled with the sudden lack of motion of the arm, causes the blade to bend.
During a whip to the shoulder/back, the fencer's hand won't raise above their shoulder or chin; they look a bit like coupés. Whips are mostly done to the chest (lefty vs righty), with the hand pronated (knuckles on top), and the elbow raised away from the body. Side-effects include some tennis elbow (there's a lot of stress generated, the elbow being the fulcrum), and also bad distance -- it's not always easy to change the whip should the opponent jump towards or away from the whipper.
Flicks: Flicks rely on the elevation of the hand. When making a flick, the fencer's wrist and arm are relaxed, and the hand appears to follow a curve (goes up, tilts, goes down) as if the hand is riding on a roller-coaster rail. (Because of this trajectory and elevation, one of my fencing books calls the flick a "thrown" hit.) Blade flexibility can be factored in, but it's secondary; it's possible to land a flick with a straight blade. The tip hits the opponent's target while on a downward trajectory, at an angle which sometimes even allows the tip to "plant" on target and bend like a normal hit.
During a flick to the shoulder/back, the fencer's hand raises above their head, or sometimes just to eye-level. Flicks don't really put stress on the muscles and joints of the arm, though you can possibly do something painful to your wrist unless your wrist is in the fixed (vs 'broken') position. The trick to flicks is elevation -- the hand is raised higher than seems rational.
Flicks vs whips... Flicks and whips can both wrap around small, late, or just-in-time parries that would have been sufficient to block direct attacks. Whips look like a coupé, but flicks land like a coupé.
Also -- whips keep the attacker's hand near their own target, for good follow-up defense; flicks require the attacker to move their hand far away from their own target, making follow-up defense problematic. For this reason, whips are 'recoverable,' which is good because they don't landsomuch, whereas flicks are frequently the terminal action in a phrase.
To actually make a flick, it's difficult to describe. You can check with a coach for their preferred technique, or run a search on this bulletin board. I think there have been good descriptions posted in the past. To make a whip -- simply look at any new fencer who wants to make a flick. 
-
Senior Member
Array 
-
You might be interested in the flick photo study starting at:
Flick photo 1/5
As a contrast, the impact S-curve photos show what the blade can do with a thrusting attack. There are three shots starting at:
S-curves
-
Still leaves us the same situation as before. The people who have told us about the timing so far are not strong flick hitters and have not done a lot on the timings, so we need more information, from people who use the flick well and can give us an idea of the new 'feel'.
There are flicks to front of shoulder, and chest, which can be made to stick. And those to back and outside low-line, which cannot. We suspect at the moment that the first lot can still be made to work, and the second lot cannot, but we still need more information.
Robert
P.S wflaschka, your persistent mis-representation of the coupe is a little irritating. A coupe is executed purely with the fingers and finishes with a lunge. If you bend your arm you did it wrong, if you hit on the downward movement you did it wrong. You seem to think a well-executed flick is a move worth retaining in foil (and I agree with you) and I am sure it irritates you when people charicature all flicks as bad whipping actions. So stop doing the same thing to a classical move.
-
 Originally Posted by Robert (2) Still leaves us the same situation as before. The people who have told us about the timing so far are not strong flick hitters and have not done a lot on the timings, so we need more information, from people who use the flick well and can give us an idea of the new 'feel'.
There are flicks to front of shoulder, and chest, which can be made to stick. And those to back and outside low-line, which cannot. We suspect at the moment that the first lot can still be made to work, and the second lot cannot, but we still need more information.
Robert
P.S wflaschka, your persistent mis-representation of the coupe is a little irritating. A coupe is executed purely with the fingers and finishes with a lunge. If you bend your arm you did it wrong, if you hit on the downward movement you did it wrong. You seem to think a well-executed flick is a move worth retaining in foil (and I agree with you) and I am sure it irritates you when people charicature all flicks as bad whipping actions. So stop doing the same thing to a classical move. If we're going to be picky, a coupé has absolutely nothing to do with a lunge. It's just a cut over. You can riposte with coupé, derobe with coupé, attack with coupé, etc.
-
Senior Member
Array 
Robert: I believe that wflaschka was using the coupe' as a way to try and describe the correct way to flick over the internet (which is hard enough to do in person). If you are going to get that irritated over something so trivial perhaps you should get yourself a hug. RebelFencer's Awesome Quote of the Week:
"Encouraging the average age of first intercourse to go below 16?"
-Army Fencer
-
Senior Member
Array 
Originally Posted by RebelFencer Robert: I believe that wflaschka was using the coupe' as a way to try and describe the correct way to flick over the internet (which is hard enough to do in person). If you are going to get that irritated over something so trivial perhaps you should get yourself a hug. Ditto.
Besides, if you "properly execute" a coupe with just your fingers, and without bending the arm at the elbow at all, then I'll parry it. You won't get it high enough quickly enough to get it above my parry, and thus is it will be parry riposte, my touch.
Everyone was probably taught a coupe differently, but for me I was taught that lots of fingers and wrist, a raise of the arm at the shoulder, and a little elbow flex is the right way to go.
-
Fencing Expert
Array 
Originally Posted by Robert (2) P.S wflaschka, your persistent mis-representation of the coupe is a little irritating. A coupe is executed purely with the fingers and finishes with a lunge. If you bend your arm you did it wrong, if you hit on the downward movement you did it wrong. You seem to think a well-executed flick is a move worth retaining in foil (and I agree with you) and I am sure it irritates you when people charicature all flicks as bad whipping actions. So stop doing the same thing to a classical move. A coupe is a cutover. It is executed incorrectly if it the opponent finds the blade, or the action is executed in more than one tempo. Classically the elbow doesn't bend, however in modern foil, it's OK, and sometimes desirable for the elbow to bend slightly.
Also note that to make a flick, one's elbow need not bend. Watch how epee fencers make a circle 6 coupe flick to the wrist. Take the blade, cutover, flick to the wrist with a simple extension. Foil fencers can do the same, but due to ROW, are able to bend at the elbow at the appropiate times.
That said in many other countries, the flick is called a coupe, or a derivative word of coupe. So, you may not like it, but Wflaschka is absolutely justified in pointing out the similarities between the flick and coupe.
-
Fencing Expert
Array
Robert (2) -- you're not the first to pick up on the coupé-is-not-flick thing, or even the coupé-doesn't-use-elbow thing. I've been tagged on both counts before. I didn't seek to create confusion by mentioning the coupé alonside flicks/whips, but it's just so useful because lots of folks already know about coupés.
About bending the elbow during coupés, there's the thread "Women and coupé" (http://www.fencing101.com/vb/showthr...9+finger+sabre) in which pkt and I cross blades over the necessity of the coupé originating from the fingers.
I'll just say a few things. A coupé isn't natively classical or sport, it's just a move -- the coupé is present in sport fencing (Golubitsky's favorite touch against Zennaro in the 1999(?) WCh, for example), though it's not common. With the forthcoming rule changes I think it will reassert.
Also, the coupé isn't connected to footwork or lunging, it's just a blade action like a disengage, except it goes over the tip rather than under the blade. The feet have no role in this blade action.
About fingers... Always be very wary of idealized or romanticized descriptions of blade actions which say "use the fingers" -- they're usually wrong, and when they're right, they usually use "fingers" to mean "small and controlled." "Fingers" don't mean anything given orthopaedic grips, though there's still some meaning for sabrists, or people fencing a slooow version of foil with a French grip. The role of fingers in sport foil is so small and nuanced, the term "fingers" is overused. YMMV.
If someone is able to do a coupé with their fingers alone, more power to them! But realistically speaking, it's going to be a combo of wrist and elbow. This is one reason why cut-overs are explicitly listed as protected preparations of attack in the rules (t.56.a.5), so that when the fencer bends his arm, he doesn't trigger the bent-arm rules on behalf of the defender.
Lastly -- the coupé does hit with the tip travelling down. With the fencer's blade going near-verticle to get around the opponent's tip, the fencer's tip is pointed momentarily at the ceiling (or thereabouts). From there, the path of the tip to the opponent's target is one that travels down to the target, where it plants and then bends up like a normal hit. This is what gives touches made with the coupé their "thump" and definitive nature -- and also what makes them one of the hardest technical touches in foil. Tip travels down, hits, bends up -- can't be done unless the wrist is fixed.
As others have pointed out, all this stuff isn't necessarily as true for sabre and epee.
Posting Permissions
- You may not post new threads
- You may not post replies
- You may not post attachments
- You may not edit your posts
Forum Rules |
