CF Sabre rules

[Christopher J Umbs]

The AHF rules for competition with the dueling sabre are now on-line at www.ahfi.org (under events - weekend of the sabre). These are the rules that will be in use for our upcoming tournament in Jersey City, NJ. Comments are welcome, but since I'm one of the authors, please be kind :-)

Christopher

[attila]

Hi Chris

Glad you like to do this tuff. I however rather like the speed of an electric sabre tourney- that way I get a beer a lot faster!

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"Kill the men, save the women, and by the gods, do not spill the wine"

[HilandDoug]

Hey, Chris: Will regular dry sabres be used for this competition? If not, what will be used? And where can I get one? i.e., will there be weapons to use at the competition, like there was at the wine festival competition?

It sounds VERY interesting, and I'm going to try to get a buddy of mine to road trip out to NJ for the seminar. He and I have always had an interest, and this type of event would really satisfy our curiosity.

[Christopher J Umbs]

All weapon specs are in the rules, but yes, dry S2000 blade on a steel guard.

Hope to see you there.

Chris

[Moniteur]

Hey Chris..Something you might want to think about / reconsider is the thrusts in pronation issue.. The classic french school, certainly as shown by Dr. Edward Breck in his book "Fencing", republished in 1926 by Spalding as one of their red cover books, describes thrusts both in pronation and supination. My Maitre was a student of both G. Santelli, and J. Castello, and they taught him point ripostes from quarte, delivered in supination. Also applicable would be the french school's thumb at 12'o clock feint head drop point to chest, or Hutton's supinated outside line parry of sixte (mirroring foil sixte) or prise d' fer in supination, closing the line, taking the blade, and thrusting to the chest, or cutting the arm, as shown in "Cold Steel" I'm not trying to be overly pushy, but were I there, I would definiately come bearing resources and asking many questions as to why historically legitimate actions wouldn't be allowed.

Not to belabor the point of the fleche either, but the USFA rule book, both of the time, and now, clearly states that in a fleche attack, the blade must be on target before the landing of the rear foot. All fencing books i've seen, including those from the classical period, describe the fleche that way as well. The so called running attack was an aberration, resulting from directors failing to call an attack into a two step fleche an attack into prep, or attack no, counter yes, remise late.

Sigh... I wish I could be there... I'd love to fence a classical tourney, as it stands though, I guess I'll just have to suffice with hammering people out of the old cavalry guard in secunda at USFA events. Oh the look on peoples faces as they're picked up in prime, cut down the mask, down the flank, and back up the chest... is just priceless.. :>

best,
chris



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Chris Holzman
Moniteur D' Escrime

[Matt_Bailey]

Moniteur: If I'm reading your descripition right, your "Old cavarly guard" is nothing other than Silver's Guardant ward!

[Moniteur]

Matt - Thats about the size of it.
its common to most single handed sword forms I've seen... on guard in high secunda, point slightly down and in...
My Maitre said Santelli (one of his original teachers) and his contemporaries mostly called it Cavalry Guard.. Conceptually, to me, from a cavalry or rapier standpoint, its the position you'd end up at at the completion of drawing your weapon.. prime being found just after you get it out of the scabbard, and secunda bringing your point more or less in line.. Clearly the naming of the parries is related, and I think most historically minded authors have said as much, though i'm way too lazy to look it up :> With a real cutting blade, like a civil war sabre, or something of that sort, it gives you more versatility and power in your cuts, as well as being a better guard position for the heavier weapon (IMO).

I've also found it to be rather confusing to modern sabre fencers who've never seen it.. and can be suckered into cutting the wrist, and being picked up in a variation of Catherines Wheel.. either in prime or septime. quite amusing, although difficult to make into a one light touch..

Sigh.. I'd love go to a classical sabre tournament... but alas, I'm out here in the sticks (KS..) I bet those AHF types are going to have an obscene amount of fun.. dirty rotten...no good, not sharing with me all the way across the country little boogers that they are... :> </pout>

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Chris Holzman
Moniteur D' Escrime

[HilandDoug]

Ok, I get the blade part. But steel guard? All my sabre guards, even the old ones from the late 70's, are aluminum. Are these acceptable? If not, where can I get a steel guard?

[neevel]

Another little note is that there is no difference between an electric and dry sabre blade-- the only difference is the grounded socket and the insulation on the guard and pommel. I can clearly see the reason for dry blades in CF foil and epee, which are much less stiff and have different balance and handling characteristics than electric blades with points, but the only reason I can see for not permitting an electric sabre would be aesthetic. Am I right on this?

-Dave

[Moniteur]

You should be able to get a steel guard from American Fencers Supply.. Also, Negrini now has their Raedellian style sabre for sale on the Negrini website... I emailed them about it, and it was sinfully inexpensive, although I forget the price now, the lira to dollar conversion is quite agreeable to us.

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Chris Holzman
Moniteur D' Escrime

[Christopher J Umbs]

Chris,

Thanks for the questions. I sent them up the feeding chain and got this response.

Chris


--------------------------------------------
posted 03-29-2001 07:30 PM IP: Logged
>Hey Chris..Something you might want to think about / reconsider is the
thrusts in pronation issue.. The classic french
>school, certainly as shown
by Dr. Edward Breck in his book "Fencing",
republished in 1926 by Spalding as one of their red
>cover books, describes
thrusts both in pronation and supination. My Maitre
was a student of both G. Santelli, and J.
>Castello, and they taught him
point ripostes from quarte, delivered in
supination.

All participants must adhere to Dueling Sabre technique.

There is nothing
to reconsider nor think about in regard to the thrust in
pronation.

1. In the "Manuel D'Escrime" 1877, the thrust in sabre is described
as
being delivered in pronation. page 111 (fig 14)

2. In "Scherma Italiana" 1891 by Jacopo Gelli, the thrust is descrbed in
pronation. pages 161-168 TAVOLA XXIX, XXX, & XXXII.

3. In "Foil and Sabre
A Grammar of Fencing" 1892 by Louis Rondelle, the
thrust is also describe in pronation. page 204 Fig. 46.

4. In "L'Escrime" 1911 in the sabre section written by Leon Lecuyer the
thrust is delivered with the hand in pronation.

5. In "The Art of The Sabre and The Epee" 1936 by Luigi Barbasetti, the
thrust is also executed in pronation. page 34 section 27.

6. In regard to Maestro J. Castello, in his "Theory and Practice of
Fencing" 1933 by Julio Martinez Castello page 161 states; "thrusts with
the
point are made the same as in foil, but the fingers are kept DOWNWARDS."

7. In "The History of Fencing" 1998 by Dr. William Gaugler, on page 362
In
reference to the "Reglement d'escrime" 1908 Maestro Gaugler states; "Point
thrusts can be preformed in third or in fourth, but most often in third."
On page 349 he also states; "The definitions and descriptions of actions
make the Reglement d'secrime the "Bible" of twentieth-century French
fencing. Indeed virtulally every French publication from 1914 to the
present is based on the theory founded in this work."

According to the above statement, we are no longer discussing classical
fencing but early modern competitive sport fencing.

I knew Maestro Santelli
and I never witnessed him teach any thrust in sabre
with the hand in supination. Furthermore, there is no strictly classical
French School of Sabre as the French simply adapted Italian technique
during the classical era. Maestro Castello taught Italian sabre technique
and states on page 9; "The French attempted to establish a new school of
sabre fencing for their army fencing masters, but they were also relatively
unsuccessful, and practically all sabre fencing is now based on the Italian
style."

>Also applicable would be the french school's thumb at 12'o clock feint
head drop point to chest,

This technique is perfectly acceptable but the thrust must arrive in
pronation.

> or Hutton's supinated
>outside line parry of sixte (mirroring foil sixte)
or prise d' fer in
supination, closing the line, taking the blade, and
> thrusting to the chest, or cutting the arm, as shown in "Cold Steel"


This is not acceptable. This technique stems from Hutton's Frenchified
foil approach to sabre fencing and is not in the repetoire of the
techniques in either the Italian nor French schools of the classical era
(see "Manuel D'Escrime" 1877). A cut to the arm is not a thrust so it is
non sequitor. In anycase, any cut to the arm is valid so long as it is
executed with the edge.

>I'm not trying to be overly pushy, but were I there, I would definiately
come bearing resources and asking many questions as to why historically
legitimate actions wouldn't be allowed.

The fact of the matter is that
the rules have been formulated with
reference to classical text. The rules are written to reflect duelling
sabre with an emphasis on the duelling techniques. Finally, "what does
historically legitimate actions" mean? Does it mean that if someone finds
some obscure fencing treatise on sabre that suggests that the fencers stood
back to back and then had to fence with their weapons behind their backs
(so that they could not see each other)that we should permit this? There
must be a firm basis upon which to stand, the AHF adheres to the historical
classifications as posted on the AHF website.

>Not to belabor the point
of the fleche either, but the USFA rule book,
both of the time, and now, clearly states that in a >fleche attack, the
blade must be on target before the landing of the rear foot. All fencing
books i've seen, including
>those from the classical period, describe the
fleche that way as well. The
so called running attack was an aberration,
>resulting from directors failing
to call an attack into a two step fleche
an attack into prep, or attack no, counter yes,
>remise late.

FYI there
was no USFA during the classical era. The "fleche" is NOT
described in any text of the classical era and is in fact an action that
does not appear until the 20th century resulting from competetive sport
application. To my knowledge the first mention of the "fleche humaine"
(classified as a running attack "attaque en courant") first appears in
"L'Escrime" 1911 in the epee section written by Joseph-Renaud.

So that you can better understand the difference between a "running attack"
and an "attack on a pass"

From the AHF rules;
"Passing the adversary (changing positions on the piste) in the course of
a
bout is permitted if it is done as a consequence of a phrase d'armes.
(Note: The "fleche", also known as a running attack, is prohibited. However
attacks by means of a passe avant or passado are permitted, since they are
not executed as running attacks.)"

Before all tournaments commence the rules are clearly explicated to both
the spectators and the contestants. Never-the-less, it is the
responsiblity of the contestant to read, know and adhere to the rules of
the tournament. Ignorance of the rules is not an acceptable excuse.

>Sigh... I wish I could be there... I'd love to fence a classical tourney,
as it stands though, I guess I'll just have to suffice with hammering
people out of the old cavalry guard in secunda at USFA events. Oh the look
on peoples faces as they're picked up in prime, cut down the mask, down
the
flank, and back up the chest... is just priceless.. :>

We are sorry to hear that you can not attend as you seem to be genuinely
enthusiastic and interested.

Sincerely,
Maestro Ramon Martinez
President, AHF

[Christopher J Umbs]

Actually I just found another reference from an article M. Gaugler wrote for American Fencer "In the classical sabre school the point thrust is delivered with the hand in first in second position".

Chris (who's trying to type while his cat climbs all over him...)

[Matt_Bailey]

Chris: Why the heck would the the thrust be delivered only in pronation?

If for instance, I parried in Quarte, why should I not immediately thrust with opposition?

Thats only one situation. I can see no reason to exclude thrusing in prime, second, tertz or quarte positions...all have their usefullness.

[walrus418]

and here i thought regular competition electric saber was complicated .....

[HilandDoug]

Out of curiosity, why does the bellguard have to be steel? BTW, I have another friend interested, so that makes potentially 3 of us.

[Christopher J Umbs]

It's a question of weight and authenticity. Everything else is too light. IMHO, a s2000 blade should have a steel guard for proper balance if nothing else. Within safetly limits, our goal is to use simulators that are as close to the actual weapons as possible.

Chris

[HilandDoug]

That makes sense. And it's what we thought the answer would be, as well. I'll be making reservations shortly!

[HilandDoug]

"In the event of a cancellation due to inclement weather refunds will be made, but for no other reason."

Does this mean we will be fencing outside?

[Christopher J Umbs]

No, we'll be inside. That is just in case the entire east coast washes away or something...

Looking forward to meeting you.

Chris

[Matt_Bailey]

Chris: I'll pull some strings and make sure the East Coast isn't submerged until at least after the tournament is held.
I make no promisies regarding the West coast.
Cheers,
Matt