When women have their own events

[Victor]

In a lot of regions, female fencers can compete with men in mixed events and/or have their own gender-specific versions as well. Although some of us may mumble under our breath ("They get to fence more than we do..."), so far it really hasn't caused a big problem. After all, the guys get a few more swords to cross in the big event, gals likewise, and then the women can pit themselves against their female peers specifically without men getting in the way whereas a few women in a big mixed event don't get in the way of a lot of male vs. male fencing (percentage-wise).

But at what point does it become unfair or unwieldy? What ratio of women per men does it take to wholly separate a mixed event into gender components? ... For example, if you had the following male-female mixes, would you hold one event or two? (And would it matter if they were A- and B-rated fencers?):

24 men, 7 women
30 men, 10 women
40 men, 12 women
60 men, 25 women

[oiuyt]

In my division (New England) some opens each year are designated as mixed events, some opens are designated as segregated, and some are numbers-dependent where they are mixed if there are 10 or more of each gender (when it's exactly 10 they're supposed to be separated but there can be debate over whether the rule is 10+ vs. > 10 to the point where a couple of years ago the decision went a different way in foil and epee at the same event).

Personally I'm in favor of moving that dividing line up to 15+ given that NE div meets that criteria fairly regularly and that a 12 person tournament can't give out anything more than an 'E' which kind of blows if it has an A or B and several C's in it.

NE div does not do what some area do which is hold both a mixed and a women's-only event in conjunction. Some years there has been an additional women's-only tournament on the schedule.

Basically this arrangement is a compromise between the people who always want to fence the best opponents regardless of gender and favor mixing everything and those who want to only fence against their own gender and want everything segregated. A couple of opens a year are guaranteed to be of each type and the rest can go either way.

-B :)

[azfencer]

I don't think it's a numbers issue as much as the level of the women fencers. Beginning women fencers usually prefer the women only events where they are less likely to face a 250 pound man (occasionally of limited skill and control). Women fencers of more experience want to fence the highest level of fencers available. Fencing a mixed event usually provides this. Especially if you are traveling very far to a competition you want to get some good fencing.

That being said, if there are over 20/24 fencers (not total newby's) I don't mind fencing only the women's event but nothing makes me more upset than being told I can't fence the mixed event and must fence in the women's event with only 8 fencers. I like the rule about fencing in the mixed being ok if you also fence in the women's.

Some guys definitely grumble about women getting to fence in two events, but would you rather not have women in fencing? Didn't think so.

[Victor]

... But who listens to me, right?

-- Quote stolen from other thread.

Hmmm? You say something?
(Imagine smilie icon here; I hate to actually post one when I can write "I'm joking" instead.)

I agree that it should be men's only and women's only. It might be a pain to see low numbers now, but in the long run it's the only way to go to give female athletics stand-alone legitimacy.

Failing that, the events should always be mixed. No women events plus mixed events. I think holding both mixed and single-sex bouts reeks of unnecessary affirmative action attitudes.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Well, perhaps you could have three events then. A mixed open, and women's meet, and the Neandertal Special. It could be a dynamic event where the knuckle draggers who think women just pull down the level of the sport can bash each other for a while, then go paint fencing scenes on the walls of the salle's shadowed nooks.

[Victor]

... the knuckle-draggers who think women just pull down the level of the sport can bash each other for a while, then go paint fencing scenes on the walls of the salle's shadowed nooks.

??? I haven't seen anyone post here yet implying that women "pull down" the level of fencing. At all. Don't know where you got that.

[edew]

No, I don't think anyone claims that women in mixed events pull down the overall scope of the competition. That's never been the issue. The main issue is logistics and fairness to women who DON'T want to fence against men.

If 20 additional women fencers choose to fence in the mixed event, and that number was not accounted for during the preparation, then you're short possibly up to three strips. A formerly manageable event on four strips now become unmanageable event with six strips. You need to double flight the whole thing. And if there were a women's event component for the day, then the women will have to fence both events, possibly back-to-back and possibly running from one strip to fence another event on another strip. They get aggravated (obviously) and would like to drop one. Generally, they drop the one that starts later, which is usually the women's event.

So, the 5-10 women fencers who choose to fence just other women have to wait around for the double-event fencers and have to possibly deal with a smaller turn-out as some of those who fence in the mixed event choose to drop the women's component.

[thecoldroom]

I think fencing is one of the few sports were men and women really are on equal footing. We have enough seperation in my opinion, mix it up. It is good for people in genral I think. Nothing destroys inequality like having 100 pound girls schooling big strong manly men.

[Fechter1]

The main issue is logistics and fairness to women who DON'T want to fence against men.

I know I'm going to get it for this one, but: What about fairness to men who don't want to fence women? It seems to me that only the women are ever considered when it comes to "equality". Some might think that a bit unfair...

[Army Fencer]

In our division, we have a problem, because we have a lot of good women, and not a lot of women fencers. As a result, there are no women's competition because the good women don't want to fence anything less than an A-1.

[shameless plug]Which is why we've set up a women's open to be an A-1 on June 6 here at DCFC: http://www.dcfencing.com/dcfc/amazon.html [/shameless plug]

[MyraTrue]

Army... I might be able to fence that.

I have had some men complain that if the women can fence with the men, why can't they go fence with the women? The only thing I can honestly add to this discussion is that women and men tend to fence very differently. Womens epee is a different creature from mens, though you have women and men who break the stereotype.

I often do feel my chances are better fencing in the womens division. At the same time, for a great rollicking good epee event, I'd far rather fence with the men. I tend not to two-event, I'm a cheap git and dislike paying entry fees for two. I appreciate that I am able to fence with the men, and I value the time I get fencing men. I feel its a better representation of epee- it is less of the waiting and picking game I've seen with many women (disclaimer being I am female, and have a great deal of respect for female epeeists, and not all fit the discription etc etc etc)

[kalivor]

In Canada (or my part of it, at least), if there are 6 or more women, they have a men's event and a women's event. If there are fewer than 6, then there is a mixed event.

And that's the rule. Used to be that sabre was mixed more often than not (and a long while ago, the same for epee), but I can't recall seeing a mixed event this year.

[achilleus]

I think fencing is one of the few sports were men and women really are on equal footing. We have enough seperation in my opinion, mix it up. It is good for people in genral I think. Nothing destroys inequality like having 100 pound girls schooling big strong manly men.

They are not on equal footing at the higher levels. That's why the world cups are separated.

Take a look at the #1 FIE mail foil fencer, and compare him to the #1 female foil fencer. When both a male and female fencer train and compete hard, the male fencer has the advantage of speed, size and strength.

That said, many female fencers can beat, and destroy men, but they have to be better than the men.

I'm not on the national team in men's epee, but I regularly beat women on the national team. These same women destroy the local male fencers when they fence them. It doesn't suprise me, the women are great fencers who work hard and beat less skilled fencers easily. Against me, however, they fence someone who is taller, faster, stronger, and trains just as hard as they do. This puts them at a disadvantage, not an impossible one, but a big disadvantage, especially in epee.

That said, I hate mixed events for none of the reasons anyone here mentions. I'm mostly a power fencer. My game uses strength and speed. If I fence a woman and fence my game, I get complaints that I'm a brute who likes to hurt women. If I change my game and try to finesse my opponent, I get, 'you don't take women seriously.' I thought I was alone in this experience until two things:

A) I read and Interview with Marc Philipoussis, a big guy who plays tennis.

B) I got involved in a serious relationship and realized that even when I'm right, I'm wrong.


I've gotten these complaints from women ranked within the top 24 of the US points. Although none of the complaints have ever come from the national team members I've fence. They seem content just getting high level practice.

[Victor]

((we need an icon for "hijack threat"))

Subtle push away from danger zone: So what number should be the minimum for segregated events?

[broncofencer]

I like the 15 fencers rule if you can get that many women in one event and give out appropriate ratings for appropriate skill then they really have no need to fence in the mens event. I prefer the mixed opens myself but I really hate the if you fence womens then you can fence the mens for free thing. if you wnt to fence both pay for both noone says if you fence epee then sabre is free.

Ultimatly I think they should just all be mixed or all seperate provided the numbers to do so are there.

[Peach]

24 men, 7 women - If you have to choose, hold a mixed event. because it's not worth a separate event. UNLESS the women's event is outstanding OR it's very weak and the women vote to fence separately in order to get some more meaningful competition.
30 men, 10 women - It would be hard. If the quality of the women's event is strong, I'd go for a separate women's event myself.
40 men, 12 women - If you have to choose, hold two different events.
60 men, 25 women - Same as 12 women. Some serious classifications could be earned.

For myself, I prefer a strong women's event rather than a mixed event, but that's because I have specific goals I train for. I just traveled up to NYC from Philadelphia for a Liberty Cup for a separate women's event, even though I only had four pool bouts and two DEs, because I can guarantee I'll get to fence some of the strongest women sabre fencers in the country and to watch some of the best men's and women's fencing as well. Don't get me wrong, I'll travel for a good mixed event if that's all there is, but I can't turn down a good women's event.

[Sabresque]

Eric, why don't you just require women who fence the mens/Cx2 event to fence the womens?

At the local level, I feel fencing mens events really helps. I probably wouldn't think it worth the two hour drive if I could only fence womens. That being said, if I come to fence the mens event I *always* fence the womens also. 'Course I have come under heat from women for fencing the mens, and I have come under heat for doing well in the mens, then fencing the womens. It's a lose-lose for me :-P

[edew]

We don't have such a requirement for local (Bay Cup) events. We can institute something of the sort for next season. The problem, with some of the other weapons is that the open/mixed event may not be scheduled on the same day with a women's event. So if there's Open Mixed Foil and Cat-2 Men's Foil, some women might not show up just for that. And those who show up for that might not (legitimate reasons, too) show up for the corresponding women's event. For example, a woman might (have to) fence in the open mixed because she'll be out of town during the time the women's event is held. It's not optimal for her, and she's not able to fence in the corresponding women's event.

At most PCS-level tournament, all events are scheduled for that weekend. It's hard to claim absence for that particular day if it's just the day before or day after.

[azfencer]

6 women are definitely too few, 10 is probably reasonable, and 15 definitely is enough to hold separate womens and mens events. It's not only that 6 people doesn't provide much fencing, it's that you are probably fencing the same 6 people at every single tournament! It's nice to fence new people (or at least different people from the last tournament) and when there are very few people this becomes a problem.

If I only have to drive ten minutes then maybe I'm ok with fencing the usual six people, but if I have to travel a couple of hours I would be very disappointed with the same six people. Surely sabre fencers in small divisions can relate to this? It isn't strictly a men/women issue. It feels more like a practice than a competition when you fence the same small number of people all the time.

Personally I really like mixed foil events but if we can get the enough women I prefer women's epee. I find the size difference a bigger problem in epee, but if I enter the event I won't complain about it. I also won't complain about double stripping when fencing women and mixed events, if I enter both I am prepared to fence almost without breaks if I have to. I don't expect everything to be arranged for me, I just want an opportunity for some good fencing.

[prototoast]

A lot of the talk depends on if there are more men than women... what if it's the other way around? What about 8 guys and 20 women? Or 13 guys and 18 women... perhaps 1 guy and 30 women? How do you feel then.

What about classifications won by men in mixed competitions?