Negrini fencing masks alert

[veeco]

Last week, I was fencing at my club. I am not quite violent, it is just training.

This girl was coming to visit from abroad and she did not have any equipment, so we lended her a jacket and a mask (of which you can see a picture here).

We exchange a few touches, and on one action, she comes forward on my extended arm, and hits herself on the bottom right part of the mask (where the jaw would be).

She instantly backed off, and removed her mask, while rubbing her jaw. I come forward and ask her if she's OK, feeling a little awkward. She's fine, but after the first moment of panic, we looked at her mask, and the mesh was completely bent out of shape at this point. The mesh was not broken, but seriously damaged.

I am *certain* that I did not put any strength in my touch, and she was just coming forward. That was certainly less than 12kg (as far as I am concerned it was a very light touch).

So I was just wondering if someone has had similar experiences before. If you have a Negrini mask (the non FIE type) you might want to run some punch tests on it before the inevitable happens.

As far as I am concerned I am not using or buying any of these masks anymore. The offending mask was brand new and has been put out of use permanently, but there are dozens of this kind of mask in our club, and I am afraid that this happens again and someone is not as lucky as we've been this time.

[damianip]

I actually have this mask and the FIE version. I fence mostly épée and, let's just say that some of my oppponents have a slightly heavy touch. I've taken many more mask touches than I would like to admit.

I have never had a problem with either mask. As a matter of fact, they seem to have held up much better than similarly priced and specified masks.

What does this mean? It surely means that quality from mask to mask can be quite variable, particularly at the bottom end of the price spectrum. This also means that one should get even their new mask (FIE included) occasionally 12kg punch tested.

Paolo

[Cutter]

Maintenance on the mask may have been an issue also. If you don't clean them regularly, the metal does develop rust and some oxidation. Also, I have heard that some people are putting them in a dishwasher to clean which will weaken the metal.

[veeco]

Cutter: no the mask was brand new as I said earlier.

[damianip]

As Veeco stated it seems it was a new mask. As I said, just because a mask is new, FIE, Allstar, etc. doesn't guarantee absolute quality.

Fencing equipment is made in small enough quantities to guarantee a greater than expected variability when compared to truly mass produced goods.

Cutter, not cleaning a mask is more likely to weaken a mask due to the corrosive properties of sweat and skin oils. You are much better off washing and then carefully drying a mask to increase its life.

Paolo

[swordsen]

I would not condem the whole brand for one bad mask. If there are olenty of them running about yuor club it is obvious that most of them don't have a problem. I personally use and like the Negrini masks. I bought one in 88 and used it till the outside wore out. the mesh still passed puch test but everything else was falling apart. I sugest you pack it up and send it back to the dealer and I expect you will get a new one soon.

[veeco]

I am not trying to condemn the whole brand for one bad mask.

However, it raises one question to me:

How much confidence can we have that the brand new mask we just bought is not defective? Buying a fencing mask is an investment in money, but you are also investing in yourself and your future ability to live a normal life. If we cannot be sure that the mask we bought is going to protect us accurately, then what should we do to make sure that this mask will protect us?

I was just suggesting that people take a closer look at their masks and make sure that this kind of incident is not going to happen to them with worse consequences than those that I have had had to deal with.

[damianip]

Again, I'm with Veeco. The brand name and FIE stamp is an indicator of quality but not a guarantee.

It's your face (eyes, brain, etc.): test your masks occasionally.

paolo

[Inquartata]

I had an Allstar mask on which a wire broke after about three months of use. Presto! An
expensive home decoration. It's just the luck of the draw sometimes; I feel for you.

Even without a punch tester you can inspect and try to deform the mesh manually. If you have no punch tester, you can take club masks to a local competition and have them checked even if they're no going to be used competitively.

[space_cadet]

Originally posted by veeco:
<STRONG>

We exchange a few touches, and on one action, she comes forward on my extended arm, and hits herself on the bottom right part of the mask (where the jaw would be).

She instantly backed off, and removed her mask, while rubbing her jaw. I come forward and ask her if she's OK, feeling a little awkward. She's fine, but after the first moment of panic, we looked at her mask, and the mesh was completely bent out of shape at this point. The mesh was not broken, but seriously damaged.

I am *certain* that I did not put any strength in my touch, and she was just coming forward. That was certainly less than 12kg (as far as I am concerned it was a very light touch).</STRONG>

I think the fact that she backed off, removed her mask and rubbed her jaw meant she was hit hard. Since your arm was already extended, you did not exert any force but her stepping forward made the hit hard enough to dent the mask.

I've hit someone on their mask where it didn't feel that hard and yet the person backed off and took off his mask (off-target stopped action). It dented the other person's mask. I didn't even feel that I had extended that hard to put a dent into the mask.

My fat guess (since it sounds like a similar situation) is that your blade didn't flex as it hit the mask so the mask absorbed the force. Since the mask wasn't punctured, it served it's purpose and now it's put out to pasture.

[Stryder]

I have worn out two of those Negrini masks.
They were great masks!
In fact I replaced the bibs and they are still in use in the club. The first of these was purchased in 1992!

TCA uses the exact same frame and mesh, by the way, they just put their own upholstery on it.

Don't have a cow! Sometimes you get a lemon.
The best advice is what Mr. Miagi told Danielsan

"No get hit!"

(One-eyed fencer gremlin)

[Purple Fencer]

Originally posted by Stryder:
[QB][/QB]

Or "Wax on, right hand. Wax off, left hand."

Seriously (Me??), I agree with that it may have been one poorly manufactured mask instead of the entire line. I've previously mentioned seeing a brand-spankin' new, still-in-the-plastic=inside-the-box France-Lames mask fail the punch test the first time out...the probe went thorugh like a hot knife through butter...right where the eyes would be.

On the denting issue...at the USC Linkmeyer Invitational last season, Brenden Richard from Rea'l Fencing took a hard shot from a little kid right at the bottom of the mesh near the center line of the mask. The foil didn't penetrate, but the mesh was deeply dented and, in fact, gave Brenden a cut on the chin (right in the cleft...good shot!) that bled for quite a long time. He had the eventually withdraw from the event right in the middle of a DE because he just couldn't stand up. Turned out he actually got wiplash from his head being snapped back so hard.

Ouch.

[Puppet Master]

A while back someone posted that their new Ulhmann (FIE I think) mask failed the punch test. Just goes to show any mask can fail, and all should be tested regularly. Including easily neglected club masks for you armourers. I know, been one myself.
You certainly cant condemn the whole brand on one account, only on many, which newsgroups like this can help ID trends. Also this topic's title has "masks" when it talks of only one.

[sallearmourer]

Twenty plus years as a armourer I have seen every brand of Mask fail the punch test
includeing FIE Mask. Some are better than others just depend on your preference. I buy the Blue Gaunlet FIE Mask. Its has to pass the same rules as allstar or leon Paul or Frances Lames mask. Its cheaper to.

Tim
ye olde armourer