Epee

[its_me_mango]

I will be learning epee from foil. I studied the diagrams of the blades/grips/nuts and bolts very carefully: I want to go with the french tip, there's a reason, I looked at the spring, and I think it's placed in the correct position. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

[MikeHarm]

French tip, screws don't get trashed as often, but the tip gets loused up more often. German, the opposite. I prefer French Epee tips because its a lot easier to slide on a new tip than rewire the whole blade because the threading got stripped on the screws which has happened to me lots before I got tired of it.

Mike

[damianip]

OK, I'm missing something here. Designwise, there's not a whole lot of difference between French and German épée tips.

To me the difference is more in the manufacturing tolreances and material condition. Maybe you're thinking about foil tips with regard to mashed up screw heads and stripped barrels rather than tips.

While I've been using French until now, I'm about to change over to German, courtesy of GW's misguided tax refund.

German tips seem to have harder screws and tips and the action seems much smoother than French. They also seem to resist getting "notchy" better than the French.

The third alternative is the "screwless" épée tip. Anyone have experience with those?

Paolo

[Pommel]

I think I've missed something here as well. What do you mean, Mango, when you say you think the spring is placed in the correct position? Why would one be more correct than the other so long as the tip meets the FIE's requirements? Furthermore French and German tips are identical in design except that the German wires have a little "cup" that houses the contacts that the pressure spring sits in. Then two ethnicities are technically supposed to be interchangeable, though most people will tell you you're asking for trouble if you start mixing it up.
Mr. Harm, I'm afraid I don't understand your post either. If the French tips gets loused up but has resiliant screws, and the German tip has a resiliant tip and poor screws, why on Earth not go with the German? Screws are far cheaper than tips. In either case a rewire isn't in order. I think you may be referring to the threading of the barrel somplace in there, maybe you can elucidate your post for all of us.
It's generally accepted, at least in my experience, that German tips are better (and by German I mean German, not German knock-offs) than French. This is reflected by, not that this is something you can always go on, that most equipment retailers will charge you extra for a German part "upgrade" on your orders.
I have a little, and know several people who have had, experience with screwless tip designs. We all had intermitancy problems, but it could just be us. The main drawback to those designs is getting them. They aren't commonly carried by retailers here and if they are you commonly have to purchase a whole assembly (barrel, tip, spring, wire), no spare parts. You can order direct from the Continent, but that's its own headache.

[MikeHarm]

Well, the french vs german equipment argument will go on forever. But something I haven't heard about which I notice is being sold (I think Physical chess and some others are at any rate) is Russian Epee tips. Has anyone tried them? How are they working out?

Mike

[epeemike81]

It is pretty accepted that German are better quality than French. On the other hand, as long as you take care of your weapons, French are perfectly fine. I have had French epees last three years with no problems greater than a missing tip screw. the tip still glides smooth. The other advantage to French is that since they are cheaper and more people use them, it is easier to bum equipment off people in a pinch.

-m

[its_me_mango]

Sorry it took so long to respond, i needed yet another password, anyway the thing with the eppee spring, if you have your Rudy Volkman's Big Book of Fencing at your fingertips you can check the diagram: but you may need to view another one. I think it's a very slight but interesting difference and in fencing where a millisecond can make all the difference between a point or no point, i thought it was very interesting. I'm not a physicist, but look at the location of the springs, and compare their proximity to the blade.
When you depress the blade into the spring in the french grip it will propell the point forward, then look at the german tip, and imagine the same thing, propell the blade forward into the tip, and you have a slight stoppage first, then a propulsion [this is all intutive physics] - anyone here take physics what do you think?

[damianip]

OK Mango,

I'm lost. I've had quite a bit of physics and dynamics etc. under my belt and I don't see what you mean. I'm not trying to insult you, it's just if you are opting for French points based on your described criteria, you'll be making a bad decision. Spring actuation-wise, they are identical to the German.

The contact gap is defined in the rules so you really can't gain a time advantage with a tip. However, if the tip binds or is intermittent, it can cost you touches.

Additionally, I've got Volkmann's book open in front of me and I don't see any French or German specific épée tip illustrations. There are two examples of the "screwless" Schermasport designs (type I and type II), but they are another item altogether. Is there a new edition of this book out? I've got the second edition.

The positive aspects of French épée tips have already been nicely enumerated here, but, to sum up:

They're cheap.
They're common.

These are the two reasons I stuck with them. However, as a club armorer, it has always been my impression that the German points are superior mechanically and in quality of materials.

I've been hesitant to switch because between my son and me, I have to "upgrade" seven weapons. (about 100 USD to make the complete change). I also have a considerable inventory in French parts, but I honestly believe they are more reliable and smoother. Very important factors in épée.


Paolo

[ 07-24-2001: Message edited by: damianip ]

[epeemike81]

Paolo,

IMO, it is not that German parts are inherently smoother, French are just as smooth initially. The major difference is that German take more abuse without changing shape. On the other hand, as I said earlier, if you take care of french parts, and are careful (i.e. test on your foot, not the floor, etc.) French can last quite a while.

-m

[damianip]

epeemike81,

Actually, it seems to me (and this is subjective) that the fit of the German tip into the barrel is a bit more precise and less susceptible to "cocking" and binding.

I do agree that French tips don't like abuse at all.

I guess I'll find out the real truth after my "upgrades".

Paolo

[its_me_mango]

okay, i'll look again at the volkman diagram, maybe i was wrong. anyway, it looked very interesting and since i'm thinking of switching to epee, i needed the advice, because.....you have to buy things that go with the type of weapon you finally decide on, the german precision thing....i don't know, maybe i'll stick to the french and keep a few loose screws! THanks for all the input you really did help even though i'm just as confused, it's not that criticial i'm not fencing the olympics next week

[Gav]

As someone who uses a mixture of Brit, French and German I can say now that fundamentally there is no difference between them. It seems that all tip parts across Europe are pretty standard. HOWEVER I have noticed that a couple of the tips that I use have minute differences in the grub screw [hole] diameter causing some grub screws to "ping out" more often than others. Best practice - stay with one manufacturer and you shouldn't have any problems. For the record I prefer German equipment. The materials seem to be of higher quality.

Another tip (controversial) use some Sureloc to keep your grub screws in. I don't personally but those that do swear by it.

p.s. Don't mix ex soviet bloc with west european. Although workable the grub screws are definitely of different sizes (epee tip disaster).

[its_me_mango]

well, the jury is still out on this, and maybe it always will be, i'll try to make up my mind, and again, thanks

[countertime]

Originally posted by MikeHarm:
<STRONG>Well, the french vs german equipment argument will go on forever. But something I haven't heard about which I notice is being sold (I think Physical chess and some others are at any rate) is Russian Epee tips. Has anyone tried them? How are they working out?

Mike</STRONG>

Russian epee tips=disaster!
I picked up a few sweet FIE blades w/russian tips. They looked nice and they have external screws to adjust the weight and travel(contact spring). After a few minutes of adjusting I had weapons that were barely legal...just what I always wanted... Fast forward to our friendly, neighborhood fencing competition, fence a few in the pools and Igor#1 concks out...no problem..grab another.. same thing a few bouts later...Same w/ Igor #3 too.
Anyway these tips are a brilliant idea... unfortunatly so was the M.I.R. space station .What is the design flaw? The tip has a plastic sleeve on it to ease the trip through the barrel to make contact with the wires. Make one too many touches and the plastic disintegrates and makes the travel non-existent. Replacement parts are impossible to find unless you have family in Moscow. If you want harpoons to hunt endangered species- buy russian....if you want a functioning epee, go to the land of Oktoberfest.

[epeemike81]

countertime,

Mir is NOT an acronym!

-m

[FlecheDeEpee07]

Hey, does anyone like zivkovik handles, i did at first but now they feel different, i have two and i dont know what to do with them, anyone need them? ill sell cheap.
Oh and about german vs french i think right now german is aleader by couple of laps, yes french have good stuff but most of it is not avaliable to the US market. Also I was browsing through www.estoc.com and i saw they just made new tips w/o screws, thats sounds great but the price is 30 BUCS!!, anyone has those tips? if u do how are they?


WATCH OUT!!!

[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: FlecheDeEpee07 ]

[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: FlecheDeEpee07 ]