Epee en guarde?

[Miguelito]

Hoping to get feedback from other epeeists on their preferred en guarde hand/arm position and how it's worked well, and/or presented challenges for them. Do you keep a high 6th hand position with the arm fairly extended with the bell guard protecting the forearm?
Or do you prefer a less extended more "foil-like" en guarde with the hand kept a bit lower and the forearm less protected?
Optionally does it help to alternate depending on your opponents stance?


(I've been fencing epee for 7 months, and I'm trying to fine tune my en guarde. (I don't have an epee coach so I'm learning via baptism by fire and tips from the couple of epeeists at my club.) I've seen other fencers my size (6'3) use varying styles quite effectively. Recently, I've been using a high 6th w/ arm fairly extended and my tip pointed slightly downward which has been fairly effective w/ the folks I fence with. But at a tournament this weekend I had trouble with folks a) picking off my hand, and b) beating or taking my blade (in one case a pris de fer) and hitting my torso.

Any advice or feedback would be GREATLY appreciated.

Thanks,
Miguel

Como dice el viejo refran, "El que persevera alcanza."

[swordsen]

Probably extending the arm a bit too much. but without seeing you, it sounds like you are generally correct. (As much as there is a "correct" way to do it.)
don't keep it too high (unless you are fencign me, then I can hit the underside of your hand) and not too far out from the body. About a half extension is good.
Evading the taking of the blade will come with practice. good luck and welcome to the light.....

[veeco]

I keep a very low guard. In the octave or second. But I am lefty, so your mileage may vary

[swordsen]

that is the other option. less by the book so to speak but very effective to those who use it correctly.
Personally annoying to me as I like to hit under tha hand but oh well....

[MHS Fencer]

I usually try to keep my opponent on his toes by switching between a 6 and 8 for my guard postion. This has work pretty well for me, but always remember, if you intentionally expose part of your arm, you must be prepared to counter an attack there. (13 times my opponent did the exact same thing successfully - my coach wanted to kill me).

-Ian

[its_me_mango]

i saw an interesting photo of an epee engarde, the weapon is slightly lower than the foil engard, i suppose it's to be able to get to the TOE which is a legitimate target, so you have to be able to find a mid way between the head and the toe. That's all I noticed.

[epeemike81]

Mango,

The reason an epee en garde is lower is because a foil en garde does not adequately protect the bottom of the arm. Ideally, an epee en garde should not leave any of your forearm visible to your opponent. That has to do with the position of the guard. as for the point, it should be pointed at your opponents wrist so that you can more easily capitalize on openings.

-m

[its_me_mango]

and also to reach the toe

[epeemike81]

Not really, Mango. The toe is NOT a prime target. A toe touch is impressive specifically because it is difficult to get a single light on it. It would NOT, therefore, make sense to structure your en garde to reach it. The en garde is designed to protect your forearm, and facilitate touches to theirs.

-m

[veeco]

I think the toe is as much a prime target as the forearm.

It is actually sometimes easier to hit the toe than the forearm.

Look at Laura Flessel, she scores toe touches in a snap.

I think it is all a matter of setting up your opponent so that they are open there at the right time, and you can get a toe touch with a pretty good success rate.

[epeemike81]

Veeco,

Toe touches are a matter of setting them up. Also, there are people who get a ton of them. However, many less touches are made on the toe than the forearm. The En Garde is NOT designed to reach the toe. By "prime target area" I mean that the forearm is the closest target, and can be attacked with the least risk of counter attack.

how I would rate target:
1) fore arm
2) upper arm
3) chest and upper leg
4) mask and lower leg
5) toe.

there is a reason toe touches are seen as show off touches.

-m

[veeco]

Originally posted by epeemike81:
<STRONG>Veeco,

Toe touches are a matter of setting them up. Also, there are people who get a ton of them. However, many less touches are made on the toe than the forearm. The En Garde is NOT designed to reach the toe. By "prime target area" I mean that the forearm is the closest target, and can be attacked with the least risk of counter attack.
</STRONG>
Agreed, toe touches are not the prime target area, and they are risky because you can get countered on them. And the En Garde position, which is what we're talking about here, is not designed to hit there.


<STRONG>
how I would rate target:
1) fore arm
2) upper arm
3) chest and upper leg
4) mask and lower leg
5) toe.

there is a reason toe touches are seen as show off touches.

-m</STRONG>

My order of preference would be a little different though:

1) fore arm
2) upper arm
3) toe and lower leg
4) mask, chest and upper leg

To me, it's more important to try and hit closer to you, and then finish off at the chest or a larger target area when you miss. At least that's how I have been trained.

This is also another reason why the toe touch is harder, because if you miss, you don't have any other area to finish to, except the floor (which is not valid), and under certain conditions the lower leg.

[swordsen]

we have wandered off the topic of the guard position but I like where the conversation is going. I personally would reverse the position of mask and upper leg on epeemike's list. and I think I can honestly say that I have never purposfully attacked the lower leg. Well not quite, when infighting it is a very convenient target.
But back to the guard position, it isn't chosen for ease of attack but for ease of defense in my case.
and a follow up question, do most of you go to guard with your tip slightly higher than your bell or slightly lower? I have used both, and tend to vary them but prefer higher. Not sure why.......

[Jeeves]

I tend to go engarde with my arm slightly extended with my bell protecting my forearm and the tip of my weapon up just a bit. This works for me as I often catch my opponents arm picks with my bell guard (several nasty dents).

[Pommel]

Just to add my own two cents about target desireability:

1.) Wrist, toe, knee
2.) fore-arm
3.) thigh
4.) Upper arm
5.) chest, hip

I go entirely by how advanced the target is (and this is assuming they're on the attack or have a very classical guard, so that the arm is at least half extended). I really don't think a better criteria exists unless it's an opponent specific opening. AS for my own on guard I favor half extension, forearm parallel with the floor and slightly to the outside. When choosing an en guard it's important to weigh the advantages/disadvantages of an extended arm as opposed to fencing with the arm down and blade absent. It's really a stylistic preference.

Oh, and for my part the en guard is choosen for both its offensive and defensive properties, not solely one or the other.

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Pommel:
<STRONG>Just to add my own two cents about target desireability:

1.) Wrist, toe, knee
2.) fore-arm
3.) thigh
4.) Upper arm
5.) chest, hip

I go entirely by how advanced the target is (and this is assuming they're on the attack or have a very classical guard, so that the arm is at least half extended).</STRONG>

Interesting.... just so you know, Pommel, my list was designed not by how advanced the touch is, but by risk/reward analysis. Thus, I rank forearm above toe, since it is a touch with relatively little risk of counter attack.

<STRONG>Oh, and for my part the en guard is choosen for both its offensive and defensive properties, not solely one or the other.</STRONG>

Agreed, but the ability to reach the toe is NOT one of the offensive considerations. as I said before, in my en garde, the important factors is the guard in front of the forearm, with the forearm parallel to the floor. That is the defensive factor. It covers the lower arm. The point should be directed toward your opponent's wrist, ready to capitolize on openings. That is the offensive factor.

-m

[space_cadet]

I suggest you practice your en garde in front of a mirror and listen to other epeeists.

Do not use a foil en garde stance. That will burn you against advanced epeeists. It's not fun being known as the "easy win" in the pools.

[Pommel]

I agree epeemike81, the en guard's offensive posturing is not directed at the toe. Though I'm sure that somewhere in the wild world of modern epee there is somebody that's tried it. Fencing absence with the arm way back can also put your point in the area of the toe, though it's obviously not why that en guard is adopted.

[its_me_mango]

epeemike81: i never said a "prime" target, i said a legitimate target. that's what's interesting about it. but that's okay.

[Chris]

Originally posted by space_cadet:
<STRONG>I suggest you practice your en garde in front of a mirror and listen to other epeeists.

Do not use a foil en garde stance. That will burn you against advanced epeeists. It's not fun being known as the "easy win" in the pools. </STRONG>

Miguelito,

The mirror thing is a good idea, also, if you can set up some sort of padded 'arm' target, it could be worth the trouble.

As for listening to other epeeists; think hard about what they say - even me!
(But I think I will come out ahead in the critique!)

If you are only getting interactive practice at tournaments, you should approach it from a quite different direction than most people: a lot of people go out and they are primariliy interested in winning, and doing it as quickly as possible (this is often one of my priorities!)

Your objective at a tournament should be to make every bout last as long as possible, even if they are against people you can probably beat fairly quickly. (Nobody learns much in 20 seconds.)

Take time to experiment with different guard positions, and learn what they do for you, both in terms of making you vulnerable, and giving advantage, and the differences in how they work against opponents of varying size, and styles, and when fencing more experienced fencers, look at how they react to it when you change your guard position.

Different positions help you do different things; and note that the same HAND position can be tactically very different, depending on distance, and blade angle.

Many intermediate fencers use the blades to help judge the distance to the opponent (even some advanced fencers can make this mistake once in a while), so varying the guard postion can be a very useful tactic.

Even using a 'foil en garde', you will learn things; and if you learn how an opponent will try to exploit your en garde, you can learn how to respond to that.

Fencing = Fun!


Chris