Sabre Q&A

[D'Artagnan1673]

I am beginning to learn sabre and have some questions and personal observations.

The only book that I own that has any sabre instruction is Nick Evangelista's The Art and Science of Fencing.

Here's what is says in a nutshell.

1. Sabre has 5 lines.
2. The sabre is held in pronation at all times
3. Cuts are performed by the snapping of the wrist and with the fingers. Not at the elbows.


My main question at the moment has to do with whether or not modern sabreurs hold the weapon in pronation, supination, or both depending upon circumstances.

My experience with sabre is limited to the Div II/III qualifiers tounament last weekend. I noted my main stregnth at being able to stay out of my opponent's range until he attacks, I then parry and riposte. If my opponent was extremely good, he was often able to avoid my riposte having already recovered out of distance. I had a hard time shifting from defence to attack. Basically, I took too long to stop my retreat, shift weight, and move into attack mode.

I did have some success with attacking. It seems that having a good, proper lunge can be beneficial to sabre. It also seems that its okay to let your foot slide on the strip to get a few more inches against less experienced sabreurs. However, I can note that technical perfection will be essential in obtaining a high level of success in this weapon as with the point weapons. I have also noted that being accurate with the weapon is not as important on attack as it is in the point weapons. Feints also appear very important when fencing an experienced sabreur since counter ripostes are nearly unheard of. This also goes back to the idea of technical perfection in attacks since distance appears to be the best counter parry.

I noticed some nice moves where the defender hits to the attacker's arm and leaps out of distance to avoid the valid attack. How many steps after such a counterattack does an attacker have to land a valid attack?

[The0ne]

learn the "arm down Sabre retreat". . . It makes you look like a really good sabre fencer! If you don't know what I mean watch a high level sabre bout. for some reason they ALWAYS retreat with their arms down. . . Is this just not to be hit on the arm? Will a real sabre fencer enlighten me?

[Victor]

As will be repeated here shortly, you should probably not put much weight into anything Evangelista says. Unfortunately, he's one of the few writers you'll find on the shelves. But the guy's got problems.

[D'Artagnan1673]

As will be repeated here shortly, you should probably not put much weight into anything Evangelista says. Unfortunately, he's one of the few writers you'll find on the shelves. But the guy's got problems.

As a long time member of this fourm, I am well aware with this fact However, what little I referenced to his book is so generic and basic that I didn't think that anyone would bother refuting it. The only item I found questionable was the excluive use of pronation in sabre.

[whtouche]

learn the "arm down Sabre retreat". . . It makes you look like a really good sabre fencer! If you don't know what I mean watch a high level sabre bout. for some reason they ALWAYS retreat with their arms down. . . Is this just not to be hit on the arm? Will a real sabre fencer enlighten me?

nonononono.
Bad habit, baaaaad. In sabre retreat with a closed three line almost all the time. From there you limit the options your opponant has for attack. Plus with your guard in 3 while retreating you can make false tempo and counter attacks easier. Retreating in low line is bad because it takes away most of these options. There are very few specialized things you can do when retreating in low line, and none of them should be used all the time.

Watch high level bouts(the world champs dvd for example) most of the time they're retreating in 3 and throwing out false counter attacks.

As for how to make a proper sabre cut, d'art it's probably best that you can a competant sabre fencer to show you. Your description sounds accurate-ish, but without previously knowing how to do it I can see how the description would be misleading.
Almost as important as how to cut, is what position your hand should be in for the cuts. This is something I can't explain without going into volumes, but for example the head cut is made from 3 in such a way that your guard is NOT projecting from the center of your torso - IE you come off from the side a bit and not straight in. Also your guard is elevated and angulated slightly to protect against counter attacks.

Ok I'm butchering this badly, so Im going to stop now. When I have time to compose my thoughts later I'll hopefully post something more helpful.

[D'Artagnan1673]

Thanks for the reply.

Sadly, I live in an area where the closets sabre fencer is 100 miles away. I'd probably have to wait a month before I could get a nice demonstration of a sabrte cut. I am going to work towards getting the new DVD. I am typcially forced to learn from watching so that isn't a problem for me.

[The0ne]

nonononono.
Bad habit, baaaaad. In sabre retreat with a closed three line almost all the time. From there you limit the options your opponant has for attack. Plus with your guard in 3 while retreating you can make false tempo and counter attacks easier. Retreating in low line is bad because it takes away most of these options. There are very few specialized things you can do when retreating in low line, and none of them should be used all the time.

Watch high level bouts(the world champs dvd for example) most of the time they're retreating in 3 and throwing out false counter attacks.

As for how to make a proper sabre cut, d'art it's probably best that you can a competant sabre fencer to show you. Your description sounds accurate-ish, but without previously knowing how to do it I can see how the description would be misleading.
Almost as important as how to cut, is what position your hand should be in for the cuts. This is something I can't explain without going into volumes, but for example the head cut is made from 3 in such a way that your guard is NOT projecting from the center of your torso - IE you come off from the side a bit and not straight in. Also your guard is elevated and angulated slightly to protect against counter attacks.

Ok I'm butchering this badly, so Im going to stop now. When I have time to compose my thoughts later I'll hopefully post something more helpful.

by high level I meant the top 4 of cadet girls sabre at JO's. . . Also the Ukrainian guy who lost to Crompton at NCAA's did it too. . . So it's just a habit rather than a tactic. Thanks!

[GreenDot]

learn the "arm down Sabre retreat". . . It makes you look like a really good sabre fencer! If you don't know what I mean watch a high level sabre bout. for some reason they ALWAYS retreat with their arms down. . . Is this just not to be hit on the arm? Will a real sabre fencer enlighten me?

I'm far from a really good saber fencer, but I'll tell you why I do it sometimes. I will often retreat with my arm down to lure my opponent into a false sense of security about his distance. Often he will get too close before he goes, and so I can hit him in preparation. This only tends to work against people who dont' have a great sense of distance. I suppose it does widen the distance otherwise, but your hand is that much farther from a correct parry. If my opponent has good distance and timing, I always try to keep my hand up, as my parries are much better with my hand up than down.

As for D'Art's question: The flying counterattack thing is often called a "sky hook." The most steps I can possibly see you getting would be the end of your advance lunge (if you're quick). However, if you're still in the advance stage of an advance lunge, you'll have real trouble getting that light on as they'll most likely already be out of lunge distance by the time you start your lunge.

-James

[D'Artagnan1673]

It seems like the sky hook is probably a fairly advanced move as it requires good timing. It seems that the move cannot be performed until the attacker has bagan some type of extension. Otherwise, distance would be too close and the attacker would typically claim the touch.

[darius]

It seems like the sky hock is probably a fairly advanced move as it requires good timing.

And to project one's spittle through the mesh of one's mask requires a significant amount of lung power, too.

darius

[D'Artagnan1673]

And to project one's spittle through the mesh of one's mask requires a significant amount of lung power, too.

darius

ouch! That will teach me to not proofread before submitting a reply.

[afc fencer]

The sky hook should be done just as the attacker is finishing their extension.

[D'Artagnan1673]

The sky hook should be done just as the attacker is finishing their extension.

Wow, that is going to take lots of practice, experience and timing! Still, it is quite impressive when performed correctly.

[AndrewH]

My main question at the moment has to do with whether or not modern sabreurs hold the weapon in pronation, supination, or both depending upon circumstances.

Everyone has their own style. Some people prefer to rely on their speed as their main weapon, and to advance with the sabre almost touching the floor, then retreat while constantly breaking distance and putting pressure on the attacker with false stop cuts. This is a good strategy if you're very fast, because you'll need to hop in and out of distance quickly to be effective.

Other people prefer to keep their sabre locked in 3 unless specifically attacking or parrying, and rely entirely on footwork to keep the opponent out of distance. It's all up to you. I would suggest, however, especially if you're a beginner, to practice holding the sabre so that your 3 line is always closed in the en garde position, and after making any action you return to that position. A big part of keeping proper distance is forcing the actual bladework to happen away from your body, as opposed to parrying so close to yourself that a whipover is likely.

[D'Artagnan1673]

That sounds reasonable Andrew, considering that I experienced first hand that close distance a parry is almost useless. I think the only time I successfully parried and performed a 1 light riposte is when our guards came together. Otherwise, it was the other guy's point.

Considering that I typically start each weapon from a traditional point of view, I will begin by keepig my weapon hand in 3. I guess I'm pretty fast; my biggest problem there is that I oftentimes have a hard time changing directions on the fly. Any good ideas to help that?

[GreenDot]

The most important things for changing direction quickly are small, quick steps. I'm sure you already knew this, but you really have to stay down and make your footwork small. The only real way to be able to consistently do this is to drill...a lot. A good drill is for a partner to chase you down and attack; you only have one advance-lunge to repost (or just a lunge if you get good at it). This is really hard sometimes, but it can be very helpful for changing directions. On a separate note, lifting to strengthen your legs can really help too.

-James

[KShan5[PrFC]]

by high level I meant the top 4 of cadet girls sabre at JO's. . . Also the Ukrainian guy who lost to Crompton at NCAA's did it too. . . So it's just a habit rather than a tactic. Thanks!

Nope...I fence with Daria Schneider(won Cadet WS), actually I have the same coach, who stops any of her students from retreating in a low line for exactly the same reasons whtouche was referring too. (In fact whtouche has the same coach ) Also, Eva Jellison, who came in 3rd, has the same coach, she doesn't retreat with a low line that often either.

I didn't notice it on Isayenko...then again I was kinda just watchin Adam Crompton's attacks, which are not your typical sabre cuts.

[telkanuru]

I had a friend who beat Eva 5-0. The fact that they were fencing epee is irrelivant

Whenever I take up a sabre, I find it better to hold it lower on the grip, sort of a sabre pommel. I find it helps dexterity, forces me to hit with the fingers, and gives me good disengages for Point in Line (yeah, I'm an epeeist, so what).

And please, for the love of those who fence with you, fingers, fingers, fingers. Sabre practices at my school go something like
Director: Fence
*WHAP-WHAP*
Coach: FINGERS!!!! FINGERS!!!!
and it's not good, no sir.

[AndrewH]

Whenever I take up a sabre, I find it better to hold it lower on the grip, sort of a sabre pommel. I find it helps dexterity, forces me to hit with the fingers, and gives me good disengages for Point in Line (yeah, I'm an epeeist, so what).

I did that for... pretty much my entire high school senior season, and I earned my D doing that. Then my coach noticed what I was doing and told me to hold it with my thumb and forefinger against the pad, because it gives you more precise blade control. I did that at my next competition, and beat a B to get my C. It makes a world of difference to be able to precisely control your blade. The extra distance you gain by pommeling shouldnt matter because you shouldn't be attacking that far out of distance anyway. Learn to close the distance with your feet before attacking and you won't have trouble with falling short.

[prototoast]

I did that for... pretty much my entire high school senior season, and I earned my D doing that. Then my coach noticed what I was doing and told me to hold it with my thumb and forefinger against the pad, because it gives you more precise blade control. I did that at my next competition, and beat a B to get my C. It makes a world of difference to be able to precisely control your blade. The extra distance you gain by pommeling shouldnt matter because you shouldn't be attacking that far out of distance anyway. Learn to close the distance with your feet before attacking and you won't have trouble with falling short.

Might I suggest somewhere in between. Holding with your thumb right up against the pad makes it really easy to jam your thumb if bells collide. You can still have good control holding somewhere in between, but a thumb jam can really make things unpleasant... I find it's best to leave at least 1-2 cm between my thumb and the pad.