Card vs. card

[Inquartata]

Presented for your approval, a penalty question...

To make it easy, I'll make my example a sabre bout and the infraction a cross-over, but the situation I'm wondering about could occur in any weapon with different infractions.

OK. In the first phrase of the bout, fencer A crosses over, and is given a yellow card.

In the second phrase, fencer A attacks slightly ahead of fencer B, but during their advances BOTH of them cross over. Red card for A, yellow for B.

Now...the red card SHOULD mean a touch awarded to B...but since the yellow card he just got supposedly annuls any touch for him---which card in fact "wins out", red or yellow? Does B get a point, or not?

[Prometheus]

I believe that one goes:

Fencer A, Red card
Fencer B, Yellow card

Mark a yellow for B and and one to the score of B.

The yellow would cause a touch from B to be anuled, but since it was a peanalty touch it did not come from B.

I am not 100% sure on this, but I think that is the ruling.

[swordsen]

That is what I would say. B didn't score a point to be annuled, he was awarded one for A's misdeeds. In the same vein, If B ahd scored on the last action without comitting a penalty while A did, B would get two points. The one he scores and the point for the red card.

[Rick_L]

I've never seen two touches awarded in a situation like that, though - a few weeks ago, my wife (fencing her very first tournament) stepped off the end of the strip as her opponent initiated a ballestra that landed, and the director said "touch, either way: attack landed or fencer on my right went off the end of the strip." The action didn't get him two touches. (Of course, the director could have been in error, and this situation isn't exactly as postulated above).

[oiuyt]

The end of strip ruling is different than the touch and card case. Going off the end of the strip is used as if you had just been hit, if you additionally GET hit it's just as if they had hit you twice in the action, 1 touch. Penalty cards are in addition to the action on the strip.

I HAVE seen situations where someone ended up scoring twice, once on their action, once on the card to their opponent. Wasn't that how the team WF bronze ended in Sydney?

-B

[Zelda]

oiuyt, I believe you are correct. I do remember there was alot of cards given out during that series of bouts.

[Inquartata]

[quote]Originally posted by swordsen:
<strong>That is what I would say. B didn't score a point to be annuled, he was awarded one for A's misdeeds. In the same vein, If B ahd scored on the last action without comitting a penalty while A did, B would get two points. The one he scores and the point for the red card.</strong><hr></blockquote>


And if B had scored despite crossing over, he would have THAT touch annulled but still get the one for ( I like this phrasing ) "A's misdeeds"?

[Chris]

[quote]Originally posted by swordsen:
<strong>That is what I would say. B didn't score a point to be annuled, he was awarded one for A's misdeeds. In the same vein, If B ahd scored on the last action without comitting a penalty while A did, B would get two points. The one he scores and the point for the red card.</strong><hr></blockquote>

However, it is also possible that, if B's initial action is parried, during the crossover, and THEN there is a hit, the hit is after the halt, and only the penalty in awarded.

[Rick_L]

Thanks oiuyt, I suspected that situation might not be analogous - good to have it confirmed.

Rick_L

[Methix]

[quote]Originally posted by Inquartata:
<strong>


And if B had scored despite crossing over, he would have THAT touch annulled but still get the one for ( I like this phrasing ) "A's misdeeds"?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yup. If B had landed without crossing over, he'd get two points, one for the action, one for the red card to A. Since he crossed-over, his point for the action is anulled, but he still gets the red card point.