where's my free hand...

[Borrissey]

Good afternoon folks:

I'm sure this topic has been dissected, but as an epee fencer with three months experience, I’m still experimenting with my form and trying to find a “style” that suits me.

And during my short time, I have seen numerous fencers use their free arm in a classical style—i.e. place their free hand near the head.

But is this really the best way? Nick Evangelisa, the editor of Fencers Quarterly, says yes.

http://fencersquarterly.com/freearm.html

Anyway, I was wondering why people choose to dangle their free arm or follow the “classic form.” Have you experimented with different arm positions? What works and why? Have people tried one way only to switch back?

Peace out, yo.

[rtran]

Originally Posted by Borrissey

Have you experimented with different arm positions? What works and why? Have people tried one way only to switch back?

I tend to let my arm dangle. I will have to agree with the article that you do get more power with your lunge when you keep it in the classical position. However I prefer having the relaxed shoulders which helps me keep my entire arm and bladework relatively light. I also find a tense upperbody will tend to drain stamina a bit faster than a relaxed one. As for having more weight on my foreward foot, I find this to be untrue. Perhaps if you just switched from the classical to the modern stance this might be true, but I believe a fencer will more likely counter the weight by shifting their stance a bit so that it's more balanced. Also when I say I let my arm dangle, I don't mean that it just hangs there it also moves depending on what actions I am attempting in order to help overall balance.

[Rolls]

I fenced with a classical on guard for 5 years. I can say that while it was a useful learning tool; it has no place in competition. Sometimes I will move back to a classical freehand behing the head position to "play around" for a few points. Inevitably, I find myself slower and more constrained. Unless you are having difficulty keeping your hand out of the way, I would forget about it.

I have come to believe there is little truth in the classical philosophy. I have become a MUCH better fencer than I ever could have with a "competitive" mindset and fencing style rather than staying classical.

So, from the view point of a fencer who was classical and is now modern. I would say the only value of classical fencing is to teach the basics. And it should be abandoned as soon as possible.

I doubt there are many "classical" fencers who criticize modern styles that have tried modern styles nearly as long as I tried a classical style.

If I were to teach students, I would begin them on a classical pedagogy. However, I would move them away from it by the time they attend their first competition.

Rolls.

[Pho]

I tend to find the modern arm position to be more useful then the classical arm position since it provides far more mobility in terms of body evasions but even then the difference is marginal. The main key I find is that they should be relaxed and extend the arm when they are lunging. While teaching my beginner college class, I let them try out the different arm positions. The worse arm position however is the one when they wrap the whole arm around the back and fence in that position. No good comes from that as it restricts mobility and tightens up the fencers.

Eric

[veeco]

There is just too much nonsense and mistakes in this article that they are too numerous to go about each one of them and explain why the article is wrong.

Suffice it to say that no serious competitive fencer nowadays follows the free arm up in the air posture anymore.

Putting this hand up does promote more tense shoulders and therefore you will lose point control. You will also get hit a lot in counter attacks because with a tense shoulder you will not move your point forward, but forward and to the side which means that you will open the side of your arm.

As far as having the hand up helping to maintain stability in the lunge, I would reply that you don't have to have your hand up near your head before your lunge to be able to put it in the right place during your lunge (which all good fencers do). When recovering from a lunge, it is as helpful and as easy to throw it back in the air up above your head than to throw it forward to where it was before.

About putting more weight on the front leg, there are other means to shift your weight backwards to put enough weight on your back leg. And those means don't have all the problems than having a "scorpio" arm up have.

[fencingguy]

Hi Borrissey,

Since no one else has pointed this out yet, allow me to be the first to do so...

Nick Evangelista is an idiot.

He has been fencing for 33 year, and has yet to produce a truly successful competitive result. He claims credit for numerous national champions, and high level competitors, but never gives the names of the people he is referring to. I believe most of the time he is claiming credit for the students of his own coach, William Faulkner (it is William isn't it?) who passed away a while ago, and produced most of his successful fencers during the 40s and 50s, before the development of the modern game.

Evangelista is the fencing world's equivalent to Rush Limbaugh (apologies to any ditto heads), a conservative blowhard who constructs faulty arguments with little to no basis in fact or reality and throws them out there as the cold, hard truth. Anyone who attempts to argue with him is dismissed as someone who has been turned to the "dark side" of modern "sport" fencing, and therefore knows nothing. One of his favorite excuses, which comes up numerous times in his books (I actually read a couple of them) is that modern fencing puts too much emphasis of competitive results. That fencing isn't about that. This allows him to dismiss any argument of "the best fencers in the world do it," without acknowledging that there is any validity to that.
Unfortunately, since he is stuck in the Ozark mountains, and actively avoids any evidence that contradicts his personal opinions and beliefs, he has a lot of free time to write books, which keep getting published, making him one of the louder voices in the fencing world. Even more unfortunately, he is not alone.

You will notice throughout his articles references to a couple of other "fencing masters" who always seem to back up his points. The most frequent name to appear is Gaugler. Gaugler is not nearly as much of a pain in the behind as Evangelista, but he does continually publish on the classical Italian school of fencing... that not even the Italians use any more. If you are interested in pursuing fencing competitively stop listening to Evangelita right now and pursue more modern and accurate sources of fencing information such as this site, fencingfootage.com, etc...

Veeco may not have wanted to take the time to point out all of the factual errors in Mr. Evangelista's article, and I will not either, but it is important to address a couple of them.

One: that keeping your back arm down promotes a lack of balance, and will eventually lead to knee or ankle problems in everyone who does this. As evidence he provides a picture of two fencers (who do not appear to be very accomplished) in the middle of an action. Find a picture of some better fencers, or watch a video and you'll see that they are usually in excellent balance, regardless of where their back arm is. I have been fencing for 10 or 11 years now at a very high level and have NEVER had a knee or ankle problem related to fencing (knock on wood). My arm has always been down, and I find no problems with my balance. The placement of your arm has nothing to do with your balance, it is much more important to concentrate on the placement of your feet, making sure they provide you with a strong, stable base and the placement of your hips over your feet, as this dictates where your center of balance will be.

Two: Keeping the back arm in the air does not cause tight shoulders, and aids point control. This is simply wrong. You can feel the tension develop in your back shoulder as soon as you raise your arm in the air and this is transferred to the front shoulder as well. This is not just uncomfortable, it is also detrimental to your point control because the tension does not allow you sufficient dexterity in your arm and fingers.

End result: put your arm where ever it feels comfortable, but try to keep your hand at or below the level of your shoulder. There are far more benefits to this than the classical position. Remember, if the rest of the world does something one way, after trying the way you do it and deciding it wasn't as good, who's the idiot?

[oiuyt]

As with Rolls I fenced with a very classical guard position for a number of years. I started fencing on a collegiate team (Johns Hopkins) where it was (at the time) required that new fencers (first year) have the classical arm position. After your first year you were free to choose whatever you wanted to do with that hand. As a result I was still using that position throughout my sophmore year as well. At that time my captain suggested that I try the more modern hand-down posture and see whether or not I preferred it. I tried it for about three days (I wanted to give it at least a fair trial) and absolutely hated it. It just felt wrong. I went back to the classical position. At some point over the subsequent summer I adjusted to the more modern stance and haven't looked back since.

So, I have a couple of years of experience with the classical hand position and nearly another 8 with the modern one. When I teach my students I introduce them both (as well as a third where the rear hand is in supination and at about the same level as the front arm) and tell them to figure out what works best for them. I give a few brief comments about why each is reasonable and the downsides to each and let them loose to experiment on their own. I actively dissuade people from the permanently-fixed-on-the-hip-fist or the entire-forearm-clenched-against-the-small-of-the-back postures that one sometimes sees.

-B :)

[Delmont91]

I agree with everything people have posted so far. I never liked the French classical style. I diid martial arts for 11 years before starting fencing and when they put me in that stance all I could say was no. It tenses your body without any benefit. Now placing your hand on your hip? I like that one. its what I do, but do what you're comfortable with. You don't need your hand up in the air to maintain balance.

[Borrissey]

Thanks for the responses. I'm new to this sport, so I'm trying to read everything I can get my hands on and trying to figure out my place in this sport.

This is why this Web site is great.... It gets me thinking about fencing outside of the sale while I read various viewpoints and arguments to supplement my own training.

[Strytllr]

That's amazing. all of it really.

I was taught the classical style, but held fast to the notion that, 1) I didn't need it. and 2) It tensed my shoulders to the point that it hurt my style of fencing. I fenced "modern" for a good 4-5 years.

Then I met a very old fencing gentleman who explained why the classical position is important to begin with. So, just to keep him from yelling at me, I started putting it back where it belonged. Oh my God, you cannot believe the extra balance it gave to my fencing! I always believed and told my coach that my balance was perfectly fine without that arm. But I was wrong. And not only balance, it gave me a better lunge recovery! I have no doubt that many, like I was once, can compensate for not having the arm in the classical position... but why give up an edge when you don't have to?

As for the cramping... I don't notice it anymore at all. My arm is as natural in it's classical position as it is anywhere else. My shoulders are still loose (even though it took me some time to get to feel comfortable)... and I believe honestly that I fence much much better now.

But of course, it's all a matter of opinion.

Strytllr

[germanguy]

.....

[Victor]

Whatever you do, resist the urge to put your hand down your pants.

I've never lived that down. If only I could turn back the clock... (sigh)

[oiuyt]

Mmmmm, one bit of data that I neglected to mention previously is that my new (also epee) coach (of a considerably more modern bent than my first coach) has me in the classical guard position during my lessons. I still revert to what I'm used to when fencing (I really should try fencing the way my lessons teach me, but I do little enough epee that I tend not to). That said, at least during my lessons, I'm very willing to believe that my experiences confirm what Strytllr has discovered and that my balance and recovery are improved. Another good reason why I should probably work to translate more of my lessons to my fencing.

Then again, while I currently only get lessons in epee, I'm primarily a sabre fencer. Sabre's what I care about, the epee lessons are because I very much enjoy taking high level epee lessons rather than because I consider myself an epeeist. I should probably do something about that as well and start taking sabre lessons. Meh, just another example of me doing things sub-optimally for my own personal development.

Your mileage my vary, figure out what works best for you personally, etc., etc.

-B :)

[DangerMouse]

Originally Posted by Victor

Whatever you do, resist the urge to put your hand down your pants.

Darn. Beat me to it

[eri]

I'm surprised that everyone is complaining about cramping in the shoulders, neck, and arm with the raised arm. Most people unconsciously lift their shoulders along with their arms and end up feeling tight and awkward. Importantly, you should pull your shoulders DOWN even though the arm is up (think dancer shoulders) and you wont have this problem.

I was initially introduced to fencing with the raised arm position. Since its been ingrained in me from the beginning, it feels very comfortable. The point for me always was to keep the arm back/out of the way but mobile enough to give me extra power in lunges. I wouldnt know what to do with it if it were just at my side somewhere. But thats just my personal preference.

[glowstix]

i'm on the other side here. i've tried the classical style, then the modern style and now i'm back to the classical style since i got whacked tonight on my free hand that wasn't even exposed that much. it was in the position similar to fencer right in the photo in the top left corner of the screen. i guess my arm is going up there for good from now on; and i'm still the fastest person in the club and i DO feel more balanced that way. its all a matter of preference.

[BrianH]

Originally Posted by fencingguy

I believe most of the time he is claiming credit for the students of his own coach, William Faulkner (it is William isn't it?) who passed away a while ago, and produced most of his successful fencers during the 40s and 50s, before the development of the modern game.

Actually, I believe you're combining Nick's mentors...Ralph Faulkner and William Gaugler. William Faulkner was a fellow from Mississippi who wrote pretty decent stories.

I think we all owe it to ourselves to test different styles to find which one works for us. We differ in shoulder and hip flexibility, and what works well for me might be disastrous for you. I teach the classical hand position to new students, but encourage them to move their hand down if it is more comfortable to do so. I still believe dropping the back hand during the lunge is effective, as is raising it as part of the recovery. I really dislike seeing the back hand grasping the cuisssard, or wrapped around the back.

Try different styles in practice. See what works best for you.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

i have no idea if it helps foil/epee.... but for about the first two days someone fences sabre, i tell them (if their off hand wanders forward) to grab the very back of the crotch strap. RIGHT THEN, i tell them only to do it for a couple days. they only have to do it for about 20 minutes of total fencing time to train their hand to not wander forward.....

and, of course, at some point in the future, their hand creeps forward again.... and then they get hit in the hand, and either the learn, or i get out the bandaids a lot.....

[Epee_Pox]

During lessons, I'm strictly classical. One less thing for the coach to gripe about, and the balance is nice, too.

When fighting, I don't really think about it -- whatever works. I tend to keep the hand floating somewhere in the vicinity of classical position, but nowhere near as formally, and totally loose.

Only took a couple good pokes in the ungloved wrist to break me of letting the hand drift forward. Actually, nothing improves my stance better than good solid bruises punishing me for mistakes.

[edew]

I actually fence with my back arm somewhat raised. But I never require any of my fencers to do the same. I only require that they don't cover target (in foil) with their back arm. Other than that, they can hold it almost anywhere they want. I personally prefer that they don't hold it behind their backs a la beginning saber fencers. So amateurish looking, you know.

I also don't know what to do with my back arm in most situations, so I just put it in that old classical position. But once the fencing commences, I have no clue (nor do I care) where my back arm is. All I know is that it's not illegally blocking target. Other than that, I have no idea.

Maybe I'll go watch some tapes of me fencing some event. Maybe I'll see where my arm is.