Lame Restoration Miracle!

[Artisan]

Lame Cleaning (reconditioning) "project":

or "How I Tried to Revive a Dead Green Lame with No Regard for the Outcome and Found a Cleaning Product that Achieved SPECTACULAR Results"

Skip to the end for the...uh.... results at the end.
or
To make a short story long:

Having "abandoned" foil for epee - (that's another story) I only fence foil occasionally now, and in this case for upcoming division 2,3 qualifiers - if only to add my warm body to the # of fencers competing. I own two lames, one is a Triplette non metallic which fits like a tent and always works no matter how I abuse it. The other is a really cheapo ($40) metallic one that has become very green and dead in many spots. I like the metallic one better for competition since it fits snugly and barely satisfies the rules as far as how much of me it has to cover - and because its mostly dead! I like the Triplette for practice because its light and cool. I sweat like a Falujian being interrogated by "Rummy" himself, so I often bring two lames to a competition in case I start grounding and allowing mask, glove, arm and sock hits to score. In an attempt to be fair, since there is never lame testing in our division I thought I would try to make the dead greenie legitimate. Here is my adventure:

- first I test with ohm meter - green spots are 100% dead, and both shiny spots still work. Conclusion: the threads are still continuous but have oxide coating preventing surface contact with probe or each other. Examination under 50x magnification reveals nothing of any coating or oxidation, but surprisingly I see that the “thread” is actually a tiny tightly helical coil of flat ribbon-like metal.
- consult this board and search for posts about cleaning lames: consensus is Ammonia or Windex with mild detergent.
- I try Windex and Woolite and really hot water. I add more ammonia until my eyes water, but the green remains. Ohm meter shows some improvement, but its soaking wet so I discount this finding. Besides I'm more interested in making this lame LOOK like it works than itactually working 100% (heh, heh ) The green has to go.
- Our laundry sink is next to the shelf where we store all of our household cleaning products. There is a jug of some stuff called CLR (Calcium, Lime and Rust remover) I think it was purchased years ago to de-scale a coffeemaker. Remembering the Urban myth about the homemaker who either exploded her toilet or gassed herself to death scrubbing the shower tile (can’t remember which) by mixing too many cleaning products; I completely rinse out the Lame and ignoring the label instructions dump 1/3 bottle of the CLR into a gallon of fresh hot tap water (no smoke) and immerse the lame. Add more detergent. Slosh around, wait twenty minutes…nothing.
- My next move is Oxyclean. I mix up some stuff at about 10x the strength recommended, and apply it to the (rinsed again) damp lame. Nothing at first. Then with some scrubbing (yes, scrubbing) with a bristle brush I see that the green stains are now turning brownish, and the still shiny spots seem unaffected. I let this concoction soak for 20 minutes, but nothing more happens beyond the initial 5 minute color change. Rinse again .
- Now I’ve got gross brown smudges - worse than green. At least people will know what caused the green. What else is on that shelf? Floor Wax? Furniture polish? Battery acid (why is that there)? Ahhh…bleach. Yes! I (being impatient) soak it in a strong bleach solution: first 1 cup per gallon for 15 minutes then another cup for ten. I don’t have rubber gloves and the skin on my hands is beginning to peel – and there is no change in the coloration. So I rinse it out again and get outside for some fresh air and put some hand lotion on.
- Returning for more battle, gloves on now – I’ve got nothing to lose – the lame is ruined now, time to experiment. What else is on the shelf…the last bottle...its blue plastic, made by Clorox. Its CLOROX BATHROOM BOWL CLEANER WITH TEFLON SURFACE PROTECTOR. Ingredients: Citric Acid, detergent, perfume.
- I pour in about ½ cup to 1 gal of hot water. And dunk the lame. Shwoosh it around for 20 seconds. The stains are now noticeably lighter. I let it soak for 3-4 minutes and the stains are COMPLETELY GONE!
- Rinse out completely…. WRING DRY. Throw in DRIER on high for ten minutes (this is now a torture test) Pull out of drier, test with Ohmmeter: nothing higher than 2.5 ohms with light pressure; everywhere 1 ohm or less with approx 500 g pressure.
- Woo Hoo! CLOROX BATHROOM BOWL CLEANER WITH TEFLON SURFACE PROTECTOR. Completely restores dead lame. ( or maybe score some dilute citric acid from your local laboratory)

Disclaimer: my results only - you assume any risk to your own equipment in using this product. Do not use the actual toilet to rinse you lame in - it might clog the pipes...

[npkeith]

Actually, that makes a lot of sense - I clean copper bowls and the bottoms of my copper revereware pots with a mixture of salt and white vinegar (lemon juice works just as well or better, but costs more) - they go from dingy green brown to shiny copper in seconds.
I do wonder if all the other treatments you tried did do something to the oxide though (after all, you did get a color change) that made it easier for the clorox stuff to work in the end.
-Keith

[neevel]

It'll be easy enough for me to do a test to verify that it was the Clorox Bowl Cleaner, since I've got a number of dead lames in my basement.

Ron Herman once achieved similar results in restoring conductivity by tossing a bunch of totally dead copper lames into the washing machine with an ample dose of Ivory Snow and ammonia.

-Dave

[whtouche]

Please keep us updated on the results. I have a potential practice lame I wouldn't mind resurrecting

[adidas33k]

I'm going to give this a try. I just had to buy our club six new lames, so I don't care if I ruin one of the dead old ones. I've been trying to bring them back to life for weeks now anyway. I'll let everyone know what happens...sounds promising though Thanks for posting this Artisan.

[cowpaste]

I tried soaking my green stained lamé into a bath of vinegar and salt. Some of the green stains faded, and the solution turned green, so it kinda works I guess. I'll try that Clorox stuffs later.

[Artisan]

As Npkeith noted, we need a control, do a test to see if the Clorox Bowl cleaner alone is the magic bullet, or if the Pre-treatment with oxyclean is a needed reaction first, for example Green stain (a buffered salt) is made alkaline (--) by Oyclean (++) and then neutralized by the citric acid in the Clorox bowl cleaner.

Any Chemists out there want to balance that equation?

[pkt]

Has anyone tried tht stuff "as seen on TV" called "Tarn-X" which removes the tarnish on silverware?
I used it to clean the silverplate Salle Auriol sabre trophy and it worked well. I have yet to try it on a lame'.
One should wear gloves using this Tarn-X stuff since it contains thiourea and sulfamic acid...and for goodness sakes, do NOT swallow it!

No, forget Tarn-X, it says, do NOT use on stainless steel or brass...

PK

[Mo]

These are some excellent suggestions but the two chemicals that you do not want to mix together and do indeed form a gas that can seriously damage your lungs are chlorine bleach and ammonia.
Rinse out the lames very well before trying the second chemicals k??

[IHaveNoTipSir40]

Try some lemon juice. Add lemon juice to the lame and dab dab dab. Eventually the green should disappear and your lame should pass resistance tests ( i think the citrus acid has something to do with it).

[reawl]

Ever the expeimenter, I grabbed a few of our dead lames earlier this evening and abottle of the miracle Clorox product. I applied directly to the lame in spots that were visibly green and then soaked the entire lame in a diluted solution. Some green came out, but the green is still noticeable. I'll have resistance readings later once they're all dry.

[Artisan]

Originally Posted by reawl

Ever the expeimenter, I grabbed a few of our dead lames earlier this evening and abottle of the miracle Clorox product. I applied directly to the lame in spots that were visibly green and then soaked the entire lame in a diluted solution. Some green came out, but the green is still noticeable. I'll have resistance readings later once they're all dry.

I used the stuff straight outta the bottle - but the lames were wet first, so effectively there was very little dilution. Try that first- to rule out the need for OXYclean . I suspect that if the desired reaction is one with the citric acid, then the dilute solution you made exhausted itself before the full effect ran its course.

[Artisan]

Update: Results were repeated and found that the combination of first using the OxyClean then rinse in clear water, then the Ciric Acid based Clorox product yielded the best results. Caveat: On one lame tested, it revived dead spots where there was still metal to revive. Badly corroded (ie very green) spots may have all of the copper converted to salt and washed away.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by neevel

It'll be easy enough for me to do a test to verify that it was the Clorox Bowl Cleaner, since I've got a number of dead lames in my basement.

Ron Herman once achieved similar results in restoring conductivity by tossing a bunch of totally dead copper lames into the washing machine with an ample dose of Ivory Snow and ammonia.

-Dave

I have had success doing this also. But you will find that the resistance fades sooner, then you use the ammonia again but then it fades sooner, ad infinitum.

Have you tried the old Windex trick? After the armorer fails your copper/silver Lame, you walk away and then soak the Lame with Windex (window cleaner with ammonia). Take it right back to retest. Who cares whether it passes because of the ammonia or just because it is soaking wet.

[Amadeus]

so...a year and a half later, does anyone know for sure whether or not this clorox is actually successful at reviving dead lamés?

[broesner]

I don't know the Clorex product, but if it contains clorine bleach, I'd suggest only using this method after all others have failed. Clorine and metals react to each other in different ways. Applied to silver or gold, clorine make both very brittle. Again, I don't know what the product contains, nor the type of metal in lames, nor the reaction between the two. This is just a warning.

Lemon juice contains citric acid and when left in contact with metal acts as a mild etchant. This should work and is fairly mild, but again I've never used either.

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

I have had success doing this also. But you will find that the resistance fades sooner, then you use the ammonia again but then it fades sooner, ad infinitum.

Have you tried the old Windex trick? After the armorer fails your copper/silver Lame, you walk away and then soak the Lame with Windex (window cleaner with ammonia). Take it right back to retest. Who cares whether it passes because of the ammonia or just because it is soaking wet.

Bill, I hope you are being sarcastic. You can't be serious, no Armorer would accept a wet lame' for testing.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

Bill, I hope you are being sarcastic. You can't be serious, no Armorer would accept a wet lame' for testing.

Donald, you are overly optimistic about the average competency of armorers. Of the seven World Championships I have been to, I know I could have gotten away with it at at least three. And I expect I could have gotten away with it at at least 70% of the about 35 US NAC/Summer Championships I have been to in the last 15 years, particularly where I could pick the armorer I went to.

[DHCJr]

The trouble is I agree with you. When I brought a Sabre that I replaced the blade at a World Championship and they checked if it was on the approved list. As far as the NAC's, considering how the USFA doesn't allow Armorers to do repairs and thus teach others, I know you are right.

[Jvanhousen]

For what it's worth:
I've had a bottle of the Clorox w/ teflon stuff sitting around to treat my lame for quite awhile and this thread encouraged me to give it a shot.
First I tested the lame (uhlmann SS) to find all the dead spots, made a note then bath time, soaked it for about 20mins. when fully dry I checked it again:
No difference whatsoever. Looks like it's a YMMV type of thing.