Grip recommendations for weak hands

[Pho]

Hey there,

I was wondering if anybody could help me find an appropiate grip for a fencer friend of mine (she fences epee). She has a weak wrist (a bit of carpal tunnel) and needs a grip that won't aggravate it. So far we have tried the italian visconti (causes significant problems), and the belgian grip. I am putting together a french to see if that'll help her but I was also looking for other suggestions. Thanks

Eric

[Aeric]

I would try the Russia grip next, because it is the closest pistol grip to feel like a French grip.

Other than that, a Modern Spanish grip perhaps?

[Pepster]

hmm..

Not to seem insensitive, but you're skirting the problem instead of solving it. Perhaps she should try using a pistol grip, but focus on doing daily hand/wrist excersises. If she can gain the hand strength rather than compensating for it, I imagine it will serve her better in the long run.

OF course, I'm assuming that the wrist weakness is simply from living a poor, deprived life of NOT fencing epee (I can hardly imagine the horror!) so if it's caused by something not so easily overcome, I'd feel a bit silly.

Although I DID have an elderly opponent once who fenced with a fench grip, but had the pommel losely strapped to his wrist to help him hold it. You might try a large rubber band?

-Pepster
- Who is very fond of his big pistol grip when his hand is tired.

[tiger fencer]

Zikovic has some unique grips.

[Pho]

We tried some of the zivkovic grips, but the problem with them is that they don't provide the wrist support since they tend to end at the wrist.

Pepster, at first I thought it was the fact that she was gripping too tightly, but it turns out that the slight bend in the visconti puts strain on her wrist and when someone beats hard (usually from the bigger rougher fencers), it wrenches the hand back and results in an icepack. While I am teaching her how to decieve and derobe most of the attacks so she won't have to deal with a majority of such beats, but its a learning process.

I almost want her to use an old italian grip (with the wrist strap) but that limits a lot of the infighting moves.

I'll see if I can scrounge up an old russian grip somewhere.

[dunastor]

I agree with Pepster.

It would be good to do some exercises for the wrist.

No matter what kind of grip you use, there's always some strength needed of your wrist in fencing.

[Grey]

The "old" italian grip would make an excellent weapon with the wrist strap. If you can't work with it, the french grip will not work any better. As to quote
Aldo Nadi page 47 'On Fencing ' -

"If the greater freedom of action claimed by the devotees of the French foil is true, it is indeed small compensation for the insecurity of grip which is a constant source of embarrassment to all fencers who use it-including the greatest of French-born Champions. (Of course, no girl can effectively use this weapon.) Furthermore, a tense hand, constantly required for assurance of grip, works against the very dexterity for which the French foil is supposed to be adapated."

ps : Do flame me French-grip users! I'm an avid supporter of the italian grip when it boils down to the better of the two grips... but of course if you cannot obtain the far superior italian grip... a french grip is still superior to the pistol grip

[suregrip]

My son fences with a french grip. He was born with a malformed radius in his right arm, which means that he does not have the amount of forearm bone that normal folks have. That leaves him with a very weak wrist.

He excercised his hand for years (and still does) but excercise is not going to solve his problem. According to him, the french grip is 'steered' by the thumb and index finger. The last three fingers on the hand merely stabilize the grip.

The french grip is meant to be held gently. My son baffles quite a number of older/more experienced fencers as his point control is excellent.

Recently, I switched to the french grip and noticed almost immediately how 'user-friendly' it is regarding tiny disengages and point control. I don't have any structural problems like my son, but I can't argue with the success I'm having with my new blade.

[veeco]

Originally Posted by Grey

"If the greater freedom of action claimed by the devotees of the French foil is true, it is indeed small compensation for the insecurity of grip which is a constant source of embarrassment to all fencers who use it-including the greatest of French-born Champions. (Of course, no girl can effectively use this weapon.) Furthermore, a tense hand, constantly required for assurance of grip, works against the very dexterity for which the French foil is supposed to be adapated."

And yet, girls like Laura Flessel use a French grip all the time and do "reasonnably" well with it. The problem with Nadi's quote is that he claims that you should fight the blade beats and try to resist them. Correct use of a French grip isn't this. It is to avoid the beats and takes, not to resist to them.

ps : Do flame me French-grip users! I'm an avid supporter of the italian grip when it boils down to the better of the two grips... but of course if you cannot obtain the far superior italian grip... a french grip is still superior to the pistol grip

There is a reason why you cannot find the Italian grip anymore: it is because no one wants to use it. The reason why no one wants to use it is because it has been replaced by the pistol grips. An italian grip is useless, unless for decorum and the "classic" look it might give to your weapons, other than that, if you want to use a strong grip, use a pistol. If you want to use a grip for a smooth, disengage, point control type of game, use a French grip.

[MyraTrue]

I am running by, and I didn't read all the posts, but I'll add my bit to this all. Sorry if I repeat anything.

I did see the comment that the Visconti and the Belgian aren't doing it. I don't think any other grip will help. Sorry to say. I have had carpel tunnel problems myself, and changing grips didn't help. I am most comfortable with a German or a Visconti, but all grips hurt. I've found that wrist strength helps, but certain things will DEFINITLY agrevate the wrists. Ie- I spent several days trying to flick. I use athletic tape to wrap my wrist up with, helps provide support.

As it stands, I don't believe any grip will "support" her wrist, and you might not want this, because you want freedom in mobility.

Lighter blades and guards and grips may help OR a better balanced epee (ie- the balance point as close to the guard as possible- not like mine that are a good 5 inches down the blade)...

sorry, not a lot more to say on this, but good luck to her. Its really, REALLY hard on wrists. I remember the agony of the DE for a while, and how bad lessons with the coach were. Times sometimes helps. Also, I learned to loosen my grip... holding tights a dead wringer for pain.

[FlamingDeth]

Originally Posted by veeco

There is a reason why you cannot find the Italian grip anymore: it is because no one wants to use it. The reason why no one wants to use it is because it has been replaced by the pistol grips. An italian grip is useless, unless for decorum and the "classic" look it might give to your weapons, other than that, if you want to use a strong grip, use a pistol. If you want to use a grip for a smooth, disengage, point control type of game, use a French grip.

Well, that can't be true, because I love my Italian grips. It could be argued that I don't use them correctly, as I don't use the wrist strap, but...meh. It gives me a firmer grip than the French, just as much if not more point control, spectacular infighting abilities, and I can still pommel if I feel the need to (not as well as with the French, though). Dismissing a grip as useless because it isn't common seems kind of narrowminded to me.

[DHCJr]

Just don't let the referee catch you pomelling the Italian.

[Pepster]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

Just don't let the referee catch you pomelling the Italian.

Are there Some bizzare rules about pommeling? Where is the line drawn?

-Pepster
- Who hate's pommelers because he can't do it well....

[FlamingDeth]

Right, right, I'd forgotten about that. I don't think I've ever felt the need to pommel with an Italian, but my mind automatically jumped to the conclusion that it'd work out for that sort of thing. Either way, I don't think there's anything in the rules that contradict the rest of my points.

Pepster: There's a rule which I just tried a quick and lazy search for (unsuccessfully) which states something about not being able to use orthopedic extensions off the grip with pommeling.

[mfp]

Originally Posted by Pepster

Are there Some bizzare rules about pommeling? Where is the line drawn?

The "line is drawn" at (not) pommeling with grips with attachments or ortho shapes:

m.4

[...]

6. If the grip (or glove) includes any device or attachment or has a special shape (orthopaedic) which fixes the position of the hand on the grip, the grip must conform to the following conditions.

(a) It must determine and fix one position only for the hand on the grip.

(b) When the hand occupies this one position on the grip, the extremity of the thumb when completely extended must not be more than 2 cm from the inner surface of the guard

[Kiwifencer]

Check the Leon Paul website - there is a grip which is a french type/pistol grip - the tang does not need to be cut down, and it is in the similar shape of a french grip, but has various extensions and protuberances as in a pistol grip.

I knew somebody who used one - he stated it gave the feel of a french grip, with some added strength to hold - he had difficulty with the french grip, and could not hold a pistol grip for some reason or another.

[DHCJr]

Barry does not agree with this, but don't try using this in competition. The Gardere is illegal for the very reason of the description you gave. The FIE does not list illegal handles in the rules by name, because the name could be change, but by function.

[Inquartata]

Oooh, the turn this thread has taken is just begging for someone to start using this as their signature:

To not recognize the power of the Italian grip is to be in denial.

[Grey]

There! Me! Thanks for the idea Inquartata

Veeco! Evil French grip devotee! Although I'm quoting from Aldo Nadi, but I do find the french grip to be somewhat at a disadvantage compared to the italian grip.

I find it far better than the pistol grip for obvious reasons (point control, disengages etc) but I hate those who could not use a french grip properly and resort to the carbon fibre grip by LP. Its absolutely revolting.

[veeco]

Originally Posted by FlamingDeth

Well, that can't be true, because I love my Italian grips. It could be argued that I don't use them correctly, as I don't use the wrist strap, but...meh. It gives me a firmer grip than the French, just as much if not more point control, spectacular infighting abilities, and I can still pommel if I feel the need to (not as well as with the French, though). Dismissing a grip as useless because it isn't common seems kind of narrowminded to me.

I didn't say it was useless because no one used it, I said no one used it because it was useless (there is a fine line between the two statements )

Anyway, the reason why no one uses the Italian, as I stated above, is that it sits in the middle of the pistols and the French. Using an Italian, you don't get any of the benefits of the French (since you cannot pommel it) and you get only little of the benefits of the pistols (since pistol grips allow you a stronger grip than with the Italian). Therefore it sits in this middle ground that just doesn't do any good to any one. True, it might give you a marginally stronger grip than the French, but that marginally stronger grip is negated by the fact that the pistols will still give you an even stronger grip, and the fact that you don't gain any reach over the loss of grip over the pistols.