Strategic fencing at the 2004 Vancouver World Cup

[pkt]

You now know the team results of the Vanc. World Cup (VWC).
If you don't, here's the URL
http://www.pbinternational.ca/results.html

Before the team DE tableau was dispalyed, i was told to watch for the reactions of the various teams' coaches and members. Alas, nothing dramatic was visible.

But these are the facts, as Craig have so succinctly wrote in his post:
http://www.fencing101.com/index.php?...d=165&Itemid=2

Russia, France and Germany have qualified for the Athens Olympic Games (AOG) based on their world ranking as #1, 2 and 3, respectively.

1. Going into the VWC, Ukraine led Italy and Hungary by 6 points.
2. Only the top two teams in the World Cup points standing at the conclusion of the VWC woulld qualify for the AOG.

The result in Vancouver:
Hugary 2nd
Italy 4th
Ukraine 5th

By virtue of the 6-point lead Ukraine had over Italy going into this last round and their 5th place in the VWC Ukraine qualified for the OG and so did Hungary with their 2nd place finish which leaves ... Mamamia!!! ITA, the defending Olympic epee team champion FAILED to qualify for the AOG.

Before the start of the 3rd round DE of the team event RUMOURS were ramapant:
~ Italy allegedly offered 10,000 Euros to the Russians to beat Hungary.
~ The Russians allegedly went to the Ukrainians and told them of the Italian offer. Purportedly, the Ukrainians told the Russians that they'll match the Italian offer.

End results?

1. Russia lost to Hungary by 45/33, and that's with the reigning World Champion Kolobkov on the team. Alas, I didn't tape that match.
2. Germany was leading the Ukrainians 31-28 with Schmid, seeded #16 in the World Cup point standing, fencing the last leg against Karuchenko, seeded 30th. [i was shooting the FRA - HUN match and came to the ALL - UKR match when the score was already 31 - 28 FOR the Germans. I started shooting from that point on.]

Now, you tell me, when one is leading by 5 points in epee, all one has to do was go for double hits, right? One shouldn't lose with a 5-point lead.

Sure enough, Schmid lost 6 points in a row!!! and on time.

At the conclusion of the match, Schmid did not look too bothered by the loss.

OTOH, the Italian Coach was going ballistic around the DE tableau where the ITA team set themselves, was going around swearing, "By God!" and something else and slapping his hand on a table. This, my friends, i DID captured on video by accident since i made it a practice of shooting the DE tableau at the conclusion of each round... and the ITA team was devastated, to say the least.

Here's a foto of the aftermath of the ALL - UKR match.
http://www.fencing101.com/gallery/di...&cat=0&pos=175
You can see the ITA team in the background with the said DE tableu on the right-hand side of the foto.

BTW, here's the individual results:
None of the Germans fenced in the individual event.
The Ukranians results were: OSHAROV, 19th; Khvorost, 37; Karuchenko, 38th; chumak, 45th; Nikishin, 46th.
The ITA results: Rota, 1st; Schaier, 27th; Confalonieri, 48th; Bossalini 69th.

It was not surprising that the audience was muttering, rather boisterously, that the Germans and the Russians, not wanting to fence the stronger Italian team in the AOG, threw their matches thus ensuring the Hungarians and the Ukranians qualifying for the AOG.

That's forward-thinking strategy.

OTOH, FRA went on and beat the Hungarians 45 - 40. FRA did not lose to anyone.

After the medals were presented, some woman in the offical party started singing loudly the first few notes of the Russian national anthem!!! then realised she was wrong. Sacre' bleu!
In resposnse, i, thought behind the camera, started chanting LA MARSEILLAISE. At which point Fabrice Jeannet realised that the organisers were not going to play the anthem or raise the Tricolour, joined me and goaded his teammates to a very rousing and crowd-pleasing singing of LA MARSEILLAISE.
http://www.fencing101.com/gallery/di...e.php?pos=-245
And a good time was had by all.

Your humble reporter,
PK

[fencerontheline]

Some sneaky nasty stuff going on. Something is surely rotten. I like it...

BTW is that you Pascal?

[veeco]

... Before the start of the 3rd round DE of the team event RUMOURS were ramapant:
~ Italy allegedly offered 10,000 Euros to the Russians to beat Hungary.
~ The Russians allegedly went to the Ukrainians and told them of the Italian offer. Purportedly, the Ukrainians told the Russians that they'll match the Italian offer.

I am not sure that the Ukrainian team would have that much money to spare. I find it a little bit unethical to state rumors like that in a public forum. Especially with the tone of the rest of your post which seems to allegate that these rumors were true.

1. Russia lost to Hungary by 45/33, and that's with the reigning World Champion Kolobkov on the team. Alas, I didn't tape that match.

Hungary is a strong team, and the Russians have been on and off, basically depending on the form of Kolobkov. In epee you cannot have a team with one strong fencer and a couple less strong and expect to win every bout.

2. Germany was leading the Ukrainians 31-28 with Schmid, seeded #16 in the World Cup point standing, fencing the last leg against Karuchenko, seeded 30th. [i was shooting the FRA - HUN match and came to the ALL - UKR match when the score was already 31 - 28 FOR the Germans. I started shooting from that point on.]

The current world cup rankings don't mean anything: there are too many world cups and those fencers who get to go to more world cups usually have better results than the other fencers. There are numerous fencers who are in the top 10 of the world cup standings and usually get beat by lower ranked fencers. Further, Karyuchenko is not a weak fencer: he's made top 8 at world championships, he was a medallist at the junior world championships as well.

Now, you tell me, when one is leading by 5 points in epee, all one has to do was go for double hits, right? One shouldn't lose with a 5-point lead.

And yet, sometimes they do, and there is no other reason to give than "the other guy was better. Now, you tell me, if you are down by 5 points in epee, all you have to do is not let the other guy score doubles on you, right? Oh, and just so you know, Ukraine also beat Germany at the Monal world cup, about a week before the Vancouver tournament.

At the conclusion of the match, Schmid did not look too bothered by the loss.

Sure enough, his team already qualified for the Olympics, so they didn't really care about it. This world cup meant nothing to them.

It was not surprising that the audience was muttering, rather boisterously, that the Germans and the Russians, not wanting to fence the stronger Italian team in the AOG, threw their matches thus ensuring the Hungarians and the Ukranians qualifying for the AOG.

Hungarian and Ukranian team are not weaker than Italy. Sure, Italy won the Olympics in Sydney. That team is now 4 years old, and has been changed a lot. Some of the fencers who were on that team don't fence anymore, and overall Italy has had less than stellar results than Ukraine and Hungary, even without counting the results from Vancouver. Hungary has had a couple of second place results in the last year, both in Barcelona and Tauber which are strong team world cups. Ukraine was third in Tauber, third in Paris, and 2nd in Sydney. On the other hand, Italy has been on a steady decline, going from a 2nd place in Vercelli (their home turf) to an 11th place in Paris. Italy went down, and therefore didn't qualify. You can blame the system, you can blame the lack of spots for fencers in the OG, but you cannot blame other teams if you don't have proof. And that you don't have.

[Epeecurean]

Hiya PKT,

I wasn't going to say anything, but I had the same sneaking suspicion that there was some sort of arrangement between the teams. It didn't spring from a naturally cynical mind, however -- Barry Paul at www.fencingforum.com planted it there by outlining just such a scenario. <<evil jawa

Hopefully veeco is right and it was just the way the cookie crumbled.

Cheers,

Epeecurean

[pkt]

Now i remember. Thanks, Epeecurean for reminding me about Barry's cabal posting.

veeco et al,

i can't agree with your analysis more. Hence i list the individual results of the ITA and UKR in the individual event as a bit of a yardstick.

i agree with you that the ITA team is a transition, building team. Davide Schaier finished 27th, well, i'm repeating myself.

this sort of strategic manoeuvering has been going on since time immemorial. In order to cover my rear, i've repeated the words "rumour" and "allegedly" and if you beleive what i heard, or if you don't, either situation is fine by me. i'm jsut giving some of our friends here do not have the benefit of being to a world cup event a taste of the ambience which the results do not convey.

Remember too, most of the audience who made the allegations are fencers and fencing coaches, i didn't. i'm just reproting them.

==)---------------

These were the words the ITA coach uttered as he went behind the DE tableau which i was shooting:
"Dio;
"Porco dio; and
"Putanna."
as he smacked the table.

It was quite understandable that he was upset... it's just fortuitous that i videotaped it...

pk

[Zelda]

==)---------------

These were the words the ITA coach uttered as he went behind the DE tableau which i was shooting:
"Dio;
"Porco dio; and
"Putanna."

The first two translated by babel fish are simple
"God" and "Pig God" as for the third I can find out, but I think my Italian friends might lynch me.

[fencerontheline]

Butanna: I think it means w hore- I grew up in an Italian family- I learned a lot of these things.

[Epeecurean]

Butanna: I think it means w hore- I grew up in an Italian family- I learned a lot of these things.

It sounds similar to the Spanish word -- it's a bad one!

[edew]

Where's Milanoli for Italy? Has he retired? I hear that he's interested in attending the Duel In The Desert next January.

[Artisan]

Where's Milanoli for Italy? Has he retired? I hear that he's interested in attending the Duel In The Desert next January.

That would be a great draw...just the rumor of it has me excited about the prospects of drawing him in a pool and taking a shellacking from him- especially if he brings the clown mask!
Maybe by then the $1000 will be worth some more euros than it is now.

[Lemberg]

As to Millanolli - it's really strange because he WAS in Vancouver - I saw him at 2 of the training sessions set up for the athletes several days prior to teh WC. Didn't get to fence him, but many of my clubmates did - he proved to be a really nice guy and stayed longer than ANYONE in the gym just fencing with all British columbians who wanted to fence with him, and not just fencing for 5 measely points - doing 15 at lest, every time. Dunno why he hadn't fenced though...
As to pkt - I can confirm that I heard the same rumours... Don't know how true they are - not going to say anything about that at all.... But I heard 'em. I do, however, agree with Veeco that Ukraine is a very strong team right now. They are a bunch of young guys, led by a veteran Alexander Gorbatchuk who went to Olympics in Sydney as an individual. To veeco's list of Ukrainians' achievements I might add their team gold at montreal world cup last year (the one that, hopefully, permanently has been relocated to Vancouver). So I would not underestimate the Ukrainians in general and their chances at the Olympics in particular. The team of Karyuchenko (who is 95% on the team I should think, as he singlehandedly qualified his team when the coach himself felt like leaving the gym being unable to watch his team's chances go to waste) and say Khvorost (silver medalist at last year's worlds), Gorbachuk and Osharov could do quite well.
Go Ukes!

[pkt]

Where's Milanoli for Italy? Has he retired? I hear that he's interested in attending the Duel In The Desert next January.

no, he didn't retire. he fenced on the team.
more fotos of the event are here:
http://ca.f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/...8tam/my_photos
i think u need to get my permission to enter...

PK

[pkt]

Lemberg,
you had three advantages over me:
1. you were at the training session.
2. you spoke the language or some semblence thereof;
3. you were able to float and i was stuck behind the video camera...

let me know if you can get in to see the fotos at my Yahoo site:
http://ca.f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/...8tam/my_photos
it contains fotos of the World Cup as well as the CSC#2.
pk

[fencingguy]

PKT, I couldn't get into the site to look at the photos. All that came up was an order page where I could order prints, but I couldn't see any of the photos.