Tried new foil times

[Rolls]

We just got our box back, and it has an extra setting that is programmed with the new foil times...

WOW. It is a HUGE difference. Night and day. No one at my club could get flicks to land consistently (they would land just not stay down enough to go off). My coach has a pretty good flick (under the old times he'd land over 80% consistently) under the new times it was less that 20%. Those that did land were pretty obvious.

I am by NO means anti-flick. I actually just started adding it to my game. In fact, I plan to continue to practice them until the new rules are adopted by the USFA for all competitions. But these times REALLY changed the feel.

For those of you who are worried that foil will be mini-epee, it felt REALLY different from epee too. The reason, the longer tip depress time made it very unique. I found that even glancing thrusts weren't going off. In fact, my opponent managed to get one through my parry once. I parried but it was just a second late. I felt his tip touch me then my parry threw it off to the side. I riposted not expecting much. We looked up. One light... for me. My parry had managed to throw his tip off before it had stayed depressed long enough to signal the light.

While I could land more counter attacks, they did not dominate the game. What I found to be THE most effective was a good, ol', classic parry riposte. Anyway, I thought it was real interesting.

I only fenced about 30 points on the new times. I refused to get comfortable with them since I'm still going to be competing under the old times. For me, I thought things were easier. Some counter attacks, more parry riposte, and more defence in general. Although the game was pretty balanced over all. A lot of that could have been who I was fencing though.

Just thought I wuold share my experiences. If you get a chance, I DEFINITELY recommend trying it out.

Rolls.

[Katman]

Sounds interesting. I like the idea of balance and all. Did the lockout time have any effect on straight remises?

[wflaschka]

All of this indicates a return to the rational, plausible bladework we all learned during beginner drills and then "gave up" during bouting. Tempo and bladework will be more human-friendly — that is, less a series of tough-to-call accidents when two fencers' tactics collide, and more of a coherent back-and-forth conversation. -- "Future Foil" http://www.fencing101.com/content/view/163/35/

Gloat.

This is a great report. And it sounds like the changes can only be good for foil... I can't wait to read any further reports, and any reports from other fencers playing with the new timing. Mostly, I really want to try it out for myself. I have at least 1/2 a man-year of lessons, giving and taking, with emphasis on planting the point.

When the time changes become law, there shall be a mondo shake-up in the rankings as the slap-hitters get shuffled down and the point-hitters shuffle up.

(I still think foil missed a big chance, by not getting rid of off-target lights.)

(Edit: Also, wouldn't it be safe to say that the new box timings wouldn't throw off your current game? The new timings seem to encourage point dogma and good technique. Wouldn't it all net out to improving your foil overall?)

[SJB]

So are we back to he-who-lands-the-200th-counter-riposte-wins?

[Chobes]

That is really interesting, i'm excited to see and try out the new timing for Foil. do you happen to know what the change in time is? from what time to what time? that way i might be able to have the same thing done so i can try it .
i can't wait to try my luck in competition with the new times whenever they take effect. i'm excited to see what happens to those who depend on flicks. hopefully more people will learn to flick properly and keep that tip depressed. i know about half of my touches include glances on the lame and split second depression times on the tip, but lately i have been meticulously working on my basics (parry, riposte, disengage) and hitting precisely and making sure the blade bends.

anyone know when this all takes effect?
any ideas on how much this will affect the rankings of the top fencers who rely on flicks/quick glances on the lame?

~Chobes~

[Epeecurean]

That's great news -- thanks for the report Rolls! Flickage reduced from 80% to 20% (for your coach, at least) and that's not with 750g spring I presume, though I don't know how much additional difference that will make. It sounds like the new timings will restore balance to the game between attack-riposte-c/a and it there will be richer tactical variety.

But...

I only fenced about 30 points on the new times. I refused to get comfortable with them since I'm still going to be competing under the old times.Rolls.

...couldn't you sacrifice yourself in the name of science?

Cheers,

Epeecurean

[Grey]

Hell yeah! Rejoice! Glory in the thrust!

From what you said, its pretty damn effective. Throw in the 750g weigh and flick, is as good as it sounds, nothing but a worthless nick on the back =p

[Cyranox11]

Hey,
Our coach organised us a new box, with both current and future programmes loaded onto it for both foil and sabre.
The new timing rocks!!! (and I was a sceptic!!!)
We fenced on this box some weeks ago:
its pretty much as reported. We had a fencer from Europe visiting us and he also played a bit: he couldnt land his foil flicks at all, not even on a stationary target, I was able to land most flicks againsta stationary target, but I battled in the bout, landing only a few: its a far better strategy to switch than try and perfect the timing etc...
The sabre timing is good too: it does not eliminate the riposte, so long as you parry properly, as opposed to a sodt parry...
block the attack and you have time to riposte, in fact I would say that there are FEWER remises landing than before...
I must say kudos to the FIE it seems they may have got it right, the onlyn problem is how will fencers adapt and change after fencing with these timings for a few months???
Things may change...

[The0ne]

interesting. Basically with the addition of longer travel on the tips, and the heavier springs, flicks will be gone. The only thing you didn't mention is whether stop-hit like actions would be more viable. . . That's one of the big things that I'm interested in!

[Tireur]

So are we back to he-who-lands-the-200th-counter-riposte-wins?

Don't understand this question... I'm assuming you mean there are 200 parries (which there have to be to have that many ripsosts). So, what does it have to do with anything?

[Masterurethane]

I think he's referring to actions like thrust-parry-riposte-counterparry-counterriposte-second counterparry-ad infinitum-i'm not sure, call it together

[Epeecurean]

Don't understand this question... I'm assuming you mean there are 200 parries (which there have to be to have that many ripsosts). So, what does it have to do with anything?

He thinks that it will be near impossible to land an attack and the game will become lopsided in favor of the defender with long boring phrases. I think rather that the current game is lopsided in favor of the attack and these changes will help tilt it back into balance.

[jeff]

This is great news. Foil may be returning to being a thrusting weapon again - hooray!

I'm not worried about going back to a parry-riposte-parry-riposte (repeat over and over) style of fencing. That type of fencing is pre-electric, and became obsolete long before the flick.

[The0ne]

The actions you see will be almost the same. . . They'll just end with the point instead of a flick! You will see bigger distance, since neither flicks or glancing hits will go off.

[MikeHarm]

If 20% of the flicks work, I think that there will be a shakeup of a year or so, and then everyone will get the new way to land flicks down or switch to epee/sabre and it will go back to normal in competition.

[Rolls]

in fact I would say that there are FEWER remises landing than before...

Exactly. When I was fencing, my opponent was trying to land remises. I found it incredibly ineffective. Simple beat/parry riposte. I found that a light tap on the weapon put his weapon too far away to go off in time. So, the remise was a dangerous move most of the time.

As for counter attacks. I went from landing maybe one or two well-timed counter attacks (in a 15 point bout), to about 4 or 5 in the same length of fencing. Defence (and counter attacking) did become a more viable option, but a well developed attack landed just as often as usual.

As far as the exact numbers of the new times, I can't remember exactly what they are, but they have been posted here NUMEROUS times. Do a quick search.

One other thing, we were only really trying flicks to the outside shoulder and back. Flicks to the inside might have a better chance of landing.

Yes, I think the new rules WILL help my game, but... The majority of my personal time training is being dedicated to the flick to the outside shoulder. I do it really lightly, but it goes off consistently on the old times. I could not get it to go off a single time on a sationary target with the new times. My point just doesn't stay depressed long enough.

Rolls.

[DanInMI]

So are we back to he-who-lands-the-200th-counter-riposte-wins?

Yes! Ain't it GREAT! That kind of fencing is the BEST! Steel clashing. Swashbuckling. I love it when you can smell the ozone produced by the clanging of two blades.

[esskreemr]

Shake-up in what rankings? Maybe at the local level while people adjust. Maybe it will take a few one-trick ponies out of the rankings (personally, I'll be sorry to see them go, nothing like an opponent with two moves to boost the ole ego). Amongst the higher level fencers you may see a temporary "adjustment" period. Overall, the elite rankings will remain the same, the same people who had trouble adjusting to the flick (how many decades does it take?!) will have trouble adjusting to the loss of a grazing thrust. The ham-handed remise(ist) will rejoice. Stop-hit like actions more viable (post in another thread branch)? If you're opponent can stop-hit with a flick, he's just toying with you...

For the record, I can flick, but don't rely on it (depending on the opponent I may launch only one a bout). If they remove it, big deal, I'll move on, no problem.

[FoilyGeezer]

My expectations are:

That you'll see certain types of flicks all but disappear. The extra whippy over the shoulder flick to the back isn't going to be effective enough to maintain it's use as a viable attack. Though the flick won't disappear, you're going to have to learn to leave the point on the target. The old importance on hand position and following the attack in should allow a good number of flank flicks, flicks to the front and top of the shoulder and vertical flicks (coupe-like) will still work. The idea now being to let the flick put the point on the target, then use your hand/arm position (thrusting forward) to keep it there.

Stop hits. Same deal. Glancing Shut-Your-Eyes-And-Stick-Out-Your-Blade style stop hit's won't work more often than they don't work now. The margin for a bad attack/counter attack will be shrunk.

Endless ripostes. Bah...Only at the novice levels. What you'll see is more consideration going into the attacks, better point control, and more emphasis on smaller blade movements, more subtle deceptions. This may mean more time between attacks. It may mean that the marching attack won't be so "Hiyo Silver!" but it won't invalidate the tactic.

All in all....a good thing....may even have the chance of making the debate about what constitutes an attack, moot.

[DanInMI]

Exactly.
One other thing, we were only really trying flicks to the outside shoulder and back. Flicks to the inside might have a better chance of landing.

Interesting. It would be interesting to know how a flick to the chest or flank might work out.