Shake-up in what rankings? Maybe at the local level while people adjust. Maybe it will take a few one-trick ponies out of the rankings (personally, I'll be sorry to see them go, nothing like an opponent with two moves to boost the ole ego). Amongst the higher level fencers you may see a temporary "adjustment" period. Overall, the elite rankings will remain the same, the same people who had trouble adjusting to the flick (how many decades does it take?!) will have trouble adjusting to the loss of a grazing thrust. The ham-handed remise(ist) will rejoice. Stop-hit like actions more viable (post in another thread branch)? If you're opponent can stop-hit with a flick, he's just toying with you...
For the record, I can flick, but don't rely on it (depending on the opponent I may launch only one a bout). If they remove it, big deal, I'll move on, no problem.
How about at the world championship level. I saw the tape from Havana, and it seemed like about half the touches were big bendy, arm swinging, flicks over the shoulder to the middle of the back.
Yes! Ain't it GREAT! That kind of fencing is the BEST! Steel clashing. Swashbuckling. I love it when you can smell the ozone produced by the clanging of two blades.
How about at the world championship level. I saw the tape from Havana, and it seemed like about half the touches were big bendy, arm swinging, flicks over the shoulder to the middle of the back.
I think they'll adjust, and quickly. You don't get to that level without adjusting your game when you need to.
A possible effect though could be that promising junior fencers might jump up the rankings quite quickly, having been competing under the new rules for a year before the senior folks. It'll balance itself out in a short period of time, though.
Shake-up in what rankings? Maybe at the local level while people adjust. Maybe it will take a few one-trick ponies out of the rankings (personally, I'll be sorry to see them go, nothing like an opponent with two moves to boost the ole ego). Amongst the higher level fencers you may see a temporary "adjustment" period.
Absolutely at the lower levels, and thank goodness for that! At the higher levels, the window of opportunity will be shorter... but not because existing technique is good. (1) The good fencers will adapt quickly, and (2) they will start training with the new box timing as soon as reasonably possible. They may not try it before the Olympics, but day 1 after the Olympics it will probably be new timing, all the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanInMi
How about at the world championship level. I saw the tape from Havana, and it seemed like about half the touches were big bendy, arm swinging, flicks over the shoulder to the middle of the back.
Precisely. The high-level fencers have the most time invested in their hitting technique, and have the lightest touch with the tip. They've internalized the feel of the current tip, and they don't use an erg more energy than they have to. Certainly most will be able to adapt, but there will be a wild and crazy period full of frustrated yowls.
Some other consequences -- possibly the better hand technique will perforce make fewer off-targets. Since fencers can't just throw the hand, or jab blindly with the tip, the tip won't be flying all over the place. The corollary requirements to hit, plant the tip, and bend the blade will mean better point control.
Last edited by wflaschka; 03-24-2004 at 01:41 PM..
When I was fencing, my opponent was trying to land remises. I found it incredibly ineffective. Simple beat/parry riposte. I found that a light tap on the weapon put his weapon too far away to go off in time. So, the remise was a dangerous move most of the time.
This is, by far, the most exciting thing for me.
Presently, new fencers need to train the basics for 1-2 years, merely so they can function on strip and have rational reactions to threat. But then, you have to add 1-n more years while they learn to "work the system," and build a sensitivity to what the tip, blade and box need before a light turns on. We really do have to learn, then put the learning aside, and learn differently. And, if you want to go next-level, then you have to learn or re-learn even more skills, like for long attacks and flicks/whips.
But with the changes, a 1-2 year fencer with clean technique can get on strip, and have everything they need to win. Getting better results will be a matter of getting better technique, and experience/seasoning.
Basically, the path to greatness is simplified. New fencers will get positive feedback by doing correct things, and they'll get it very early... not in 5 years, but in 1. This will generate more new fencers, and better retention rate.
Do you seriously think that those fencers will have a problem adjusting? I've seen those videos, their footwork is was sound, Their bladework was sound. Even the marching attacks had tactics written all over them (multiple feints, wait til opponent breaks down, finish). It will just change how they finish. Most of those fencers won't even miss a beat before adapting, they may miss the flick to the flank but a 6 flick (righty) will reappear as a thrown thrust.
If it will stop all the whiners, I could care less. it's not going to affect me that much. I'm sure they'll find something else to moan about. Ohhh Noooo! I can't defend against the insurmountable fleche, lets change the rules and remove it cause I'm to fat or slow to learn to watch my distance and remove the threat properly.
Honestly, the whole flick controversy could have been avoided 10 years ago if they would have clamped down and enforced the rules with minor adjustments. The problem is that a faulty interpretation (combined with other factors) bled down to the lower levels and set up this whole dogma that the flick is somehow cheating. I really think that it has denegrated a "got flick love it, got flicked hate it" dichotomic (probably not a real word) complaint session. I also think that it is a shame when we have to force a change in the rules just because a certain subsect of fencers can't learn to deal with a particular action.
What's next? Let's remove the esquive 'cause it's too hard to hit the person when they do the twisty bendy thing. I know, let's change the rules and get rid of the beat-parry 4 because I have to work to get around it.
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Some other consequences -- possibly the better hand technique will perforce make fewer off-targets. Since fencers can't just throw the hand, or jab blindly with the tip, the tip won't be flying all over the place. The corollary requirements to hit, plant the tip, and bend the blade will mean better point control.
Actually, I did notice less off target. For two reasons.
1) I was aiming at easier to hit bigger targets. The weapon-side shoulder where many flicks go is pretty small / easy to hit off target.
2) The other off targets where you glance the arm on the way in didn't always go off. It just depends on whether you graze by or you directly hit another target on the way in. As it is now, simply grazing the arm DEFINITELY registers off target.
Rolls, when you go down to your club tonight and hook up on the piste with that new box, won't you be tempted to flip that little switch? Come on, Rolls! You know you want to! Go on, do it!
I think they'll adjust, and quickly. You don't get to that level without adjusting your game when you need to.
A possible effect though could be that promising junior fencers might jump up the rankings quite quickly, having been competing under the new rules for a year before the senior folks. It'll balance itself out in a short period of time, though.
yes, that's true. They will adjust, but a big adjustment it will be.
Advancement in our sport means setting it back 20 years. Isn't technology wonderful? Why don't we revert to wood racquets in tennis as well? Will slow it down for everyone and make it easier to watch and call.
I've seen those videos, their footwork is was sound, Their bladework was sound. Even the marching attacks had tactics written all over them (multiple feints, wait til opponent breaks down, finish). It will just change how they finish. Most of those fencers won't even miss a beat before adapting, they may miss the flick to the flank but a 6 flick (righty) will reappear as a thrown thrust.
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are you kidding? the footwork was, overall, horrendous. The only team that I saw that had consistantly sound footwork was China. I watched it back to back with a tape from the 1988 world cup. Now THAT had good footwork.
That wasn't just my opinion, I was watching it with two Maestros that were on the Soviet Union national team in the 80s.
That's funny because at NAC's I had to fence a clubmate. He has a REAL strong flick attack that is the center of his game. It took me FOREVER to learn to stop it, but now I can stop almost any flick. Anyway, I added a flick to the weapon shoulder to my game and used it exclusively in that bout. I beat him something like 15 - 9. He was PISSED. Why? Because my flicks kept wrapping around his parry. I just laughed and told him he was parrying too close to the body.
Normally, he's a big fan of the flick. I guess just as long as he's not being hit by it.
I have found that at my level most real good flickers have pretty poor defence against them.
Advancement in our sport means setting it back 20 years. Isn't technology wonderful? Why don't we revert to wood racquets in tennis as well? Will slow it down for everyone and make it easier to watch and call.
In other sports when technology comes along that would change the game too dramatically they write rules to compensate. For example, golf ball companies can make balls that you can hit straight as an arrow for 400 yards, but they don't because there are rules that prevent that Likewise they have the technology to make really long whippy club shafts which allow a slower swinger to achieve a higher club head speed, but they have established rules to prevent that. Tennis balls must have a certain amount of fuzz and fall within certain pressure parameters, or they would go way too fast and there would be no long rallies.
30 to 40 years ago the technology was created (electronic scoring, and super flexible steel) that made the flick attack a viable option. Over the years fencers learned how to capitalize on this technology. The result is that it has change the sport as dramatically as if you could consistantly hit a golf ball 400 yards or more or if you could serve a tennis ball at 200 mph.
These rule changes simply compensate for the changes that this technology brought on, it should have been done back then, had they had the foresight to see the effect that these changes would have.
Rolls, when you go down to your club tonight and hook up on the piste with that new box, won't you be tempted to flip that little switch? Come on, Rolls! You know you want to! Go on, do it!
Nah, I'm real good about disciplining myself. Plus, I have goals that I want to meet, which means sticking to the current competitive context. When the switch comes, I won't have trouble. My game has always centered around the thrust (except right now I'm trying to make it center around the flick to 6, go figure).
Isn't technology wonderful? Why don't we revert to wood racquets in tennis as well? Will slow it down for everyone and make it easier to watch and call.
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