Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

mithrandir · 03-17-2004, 02:04 PM

(hey i'm new here -_-'')

I've only been fencing for about two months, but I've done a lot of looking into the books published on the subject, anywhere from the history of the sport to the techniques involved. So far, when explaining what equipment should look like, it's been stressed as *white only* and I understand that (I guess up until recently) that's been the case. It's just that I've never seen anything written as to *why* (for practical reasons or otherwise).

So, just out of curiousity, why white?

Thanks.

FlamingDeth · 03-17-2004, 02:40 PM

Though I may be mistaken, I believe that it's because in the days before electrical scoring, a sort of dye, ink, charcoal, or some other marking substance was used on the tip of the weapons for scoring purposes, and white made it easy to see when someone recieved a touch.

telkanuru · 03-17-2004, 02:48 PM

Charcoal or coloured chalk, I thought.

The0ne · 03-17-2004, 02:57 PM

because if fencers looked too cool everyone would fence!

frenzl · 03-17-2004, 03:02 PM

all white can be cool.

mithrandir · 03-17-2004, 03:09 PM

makes a whole lot of sense guys, thank you very much.

Strytllr · 03-17-2004, 03:24 PM

I was told by an ancient epeeist I once had the pleasure of meeting who fought back in the 20's and 30's that their epees had three little barbs at the end with a piece of lipstick stuck in the middle. To be classified as a adequate "hit", the barbs had to puncture the jacket enough to leave a lipstick stain on the jacket.

Course, he also said that he'd run through a jacket a season due to it being cut to ribbons. *shrug*

ShadowHuntr · 03-17-2004, 03:47 PM

i dont know for sure, but i heard that it was red colored vinegar on the tip.

npkeith · 03-17-2004, 05:05 PM

C.L. de Beaumont's book on fencing (I forget the title) describes the "russian epee marker point." It had cotton wool packed into a spring-loaded sleeve. If the touch was greater than 750 grams, the sleeve would retract and the cotton would touch the uniform of the opponent. The cotton was soaked in a mixture of water, phenothalein and ammonia. The phenothalein is an indicator that is red in a basic solution. The ammonia makes the solution basic, but evaporates quickly, leaving the phenothalein and water (now colorless). In otherwords you get a red dot that fades in a few minutes. The downsides - if you have acid sweat (or soak your uniform in vinegar) the ammonia is neutralized instantly, and no mark shows. You also have to constantly replenish the cotton in the tip as the ammonia evaporates too. Hence the whites.

DHCJr · 03-17-2004, 05:28 PM

I happen to have one of the points, which looks like a little crown with 3 points. The crown was tied to the blade, the same standard blade we have now with a nail head. A drop would be put in the middle suspended on the string. Several dyes were used. A popular one was mecuricrom.

They had lemons to clean the spot after the touch was declared.

ShadowHuntr · 03-17-2004, 10:09 PM

and when you lost you needed to suck lemon juice :P

Lee Yue Yang · 03-18-2004, 08:28 AM

If you did'nt clean the dye off,you're going to get a pretty cool "polka-dots" jacket!

mithrandir · 03-18-2004, 01:00 PM

polka dots sound awesome to me

thanks again to everyone for your help!

akaiyuki · 03-18-2004, 10:36 PM

From what I heard, way before that, people fence with with real swords and they really cut you, and so you can see blood.
Now it could be my coach was just making up stories, but sounds interesting enough.

great bowyer · 03-19-2004, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by akaiyuki

From what I heard, way before that, people fence with with real swords and they really cut you, and so you can see blood.
Now it could be my coach was just making up stories, but sounds interesting enough.

i heard that there are still groups in germany that have a variation of that.

Islander · 03-19-2004, 08:30 AM

The "histories of fencing" I've read have all stated that white is used so that blood shows on it. This tradition dates back to the "dueling days", when people didn't fence for sport and didn't have this wussy FIE-regulated protective clothing

One source stated that herein lies the reason why coaches use black clothing, but I have yet to fully comprehend it. "Fencing masters use black, because if a student sees he has wounded his coach, he will never become a good fencer."

frenzl · 03-19-2004, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by great bowyer

i heard that there are still groups in germany that have a variation of that.

yes there it i believe it is called mesur. it is illegal but some fraternities do it secrectly. and it's just two poepl with goggles and leather neck guards and they try to hack their faces off with the tip of their blades.

great bowyer · 03-19-2004, 05:47 PM

i think it is also called "Schlaeger Fechten" i have a few pictures somewhere that a friend gave me from the 1950's

mithrandir · 03-19-2004, 08:20 PM

fencing in white to see blood did cross my mind... but I confess I hoped it wasn't the only reason :P

Quote:

yes there it i believe it is called mesur. it is illegal but some fraternities do it secrectly. and it's just two poepl with goggles and leather neck guards and they try to hack their faces off with the tip of their blades.

... and I don't think I'll ever understand why you would want to hack someone else's face off (never mind having your own hacked off). For me, there's more in knowing you could have seriously hurt someone than in actually doing it. (ie. fencing with protective equipment, as opposed to without)

Black Jeebus · 03-20-2004, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frenzl

yes there it i believe it is called mesur. it is illegal but some fraternities do it secrectly. and it's just two poepl with goggles and leather neck guards and they try to hack their faces off with the tip of their blades.

Actually it's its my understanding that since the intention is not to do real bodily harm to your opponent the Mensur franternities are protected as sports under German law.