Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

Duelist · 03-17-2004, 01:12 PM

Hello everyone,

I have pretty much given up on finding a negrini french grip (if anyone does know where I could get one please tell me!) so I am looking to find an alternate brand that works with their pommels. I recall, Veeco posted earlier that using the pommels with a Prieur grip was illegal because it was to long. My first question is are there any other brands that you can use legally with the shermasport pommel?

My second question is about Leon Paul blades. Is everything they say about them being much lighter true? Are there any problems with them such as part incompatability or breakage? I remember hearing something about the wire and something about the blade bending 90 degrees.

Thanks

great bowyer · 03-17-2004, 01:39 PM

you can send negrini an email and order items directly through them, their website is www.negrini.com

i think the leon paul blades are about the same weight as the bf blades, but the way i have mine right now, it feels a little tip heavy. but i do not know what you mean by "much lighter"

as far as bending goes, mine does have a habit of bending when you hit hard, but it has never bent 90 degrees, and i have not had any problems with it's bending.

also, i use a german point on it and do not have any problems with compatibility, being as this blade was given to me, i am unsure if the threading was changed to fit the german tip though.

if you want more info on equipment, you should check out the equipment reveiw part of this site.

DHCJr · 03-17-2004, 01:45 PM

I am not sure of the length of the pommels you are talking about, but there are two ways to deal with the length problem. You can shorten the handle or there are smaller size, sometimes called child size handles.

The blades are much lighter. They use a folded method of steel, rather than a forge.

veeco · 03-17-2004, 05:14 PM

Yes, I would recommend using a hacksaw and cutting about a centimetre off of the Prieur grip. That would solve your problem.

Duelist · 03-17-2004, 06:08 PM

Thanks for the info.

damianip · 03-17-2004, 06:29 PM

Here are a couple of photos showing the lengths of the components of the Schermasport grip:

http://www.cinghiale.org/images/DCP_2364_sm.jpg

and

http://www.cinghiale.org/images/DCP_2360_sm.jpg

The taller measurement is tough to read, however it's approximately 137 mm.

Paolo

veeco · 03-17-2004, 08:11 PM

So I just pulled out my Schermasport grip and my Prieur grip, and mesured them. The Schermasport a Paolo indicated is about 14cm. The Prieur is about 15cm. The Schermasport pommel is about 6 cm. So theoretically, the 21cm rule is not broken by the combo Schermasport pommel + Prieur handle.

Which raises another question for the armorers on this board: what is the correct way to measure a bent French grip? I would think that if you bend enough your grip you would be losing in length, since the grip isn't in the horizontal plane anymore. So theoretically you could use a combo handle + pommel that is over 21cm when measured flat, but that once bent is under the 21cm.

By the way, Cartel also sells the same handles than Prieur does. With Bruno Royer's reputation behind the Cartel shop, I must say that I am not going to by from Prieur much anymore, except when I am in a hurry. Cartel sells BF blades also, which are far superior in quality than the Prieur blades.

damianip · 03-17-2004, 08:35 PM

So, I missed something:

Veeco, has Bruno left Prieur/Soudet?

When did this happen?

Paolo

Duelist · 03-17-2004, 09:02 PM

Thanks for the measurements damianip and veeco. Who / what is this cartel?

veeco · 03-17-2004, 09:16 PM

Yes, Bruno left Prieur and has started his own business, now called Cartel Escrime. They have a website:

http://www.cartel-escrime.com

Word is that he didn't approve of the France-Lames -- Prieur merger and left because of that.

Duelist · 03-17-2004, 09:18 PM

Thanks veeco, out of the two prieur style grips which of the two would your reccomend? Also on that site of what manufacture are the guards?

veeco · 03-17-2004, 09:22 PM

http://www.cartel-escrime.com/catalo...roducts_id=149

This is the handle you want. It is made of wood but has a thin sheet of metal in between the wood and the rubber. This makes the handle strong but light, and easy to bend. It is also easier to get it on the tang, as wood is easier to grind than metal. Those that have tried putting on and removing a schermasport grip on and off know what I am talking about

I don't know what the guards are made of. I would guess that the light one is aluminum, and probably comes from the same supplier as Uhlmann and Allstar. They look very similar.

Duelist · 03-17-2004, 09:24 PM

Once again thanks for the information veeco, you are a very helpful individual.

DHCJr · 03-17-2004, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by veeco

So I just pulled out my Schermasport grip and my Prieur grip, and mesured them. The Schermasport a Paolo indicated is about 14cm. The Prieur is about 15cm. The Schermasport pommel is about 6 cm. So theoretically, the 21cm rule is not broken by the combo Schermasport pommel + Prieur handle.

Which raises another question for the armorers on this board: what is the correct way to measure a bent French grip? I would think that if you bend enough your grip you would be losing in length, since the grip isn't in the horizontal plane anymore. So theoretically you could use a combo handle + pommel that is over 21cm when measured flat, but that once bent is under the 21cm.

Check out M.4.1 The maximum length is 20cm.

On your 2nd question. If you went strictly by that rule the maximum length of the handle AND the guard MINUS any part in front of the smooth convex surface (strengthener), the maximum is 17cm. So the handle can't be measured with out taking into account the guard. This is also the problem with blades. Russian blades are usually illegal when used with Western European tips, because they are designed with Russian tips and strengtheners in mind which are shorter.

The problem is the 17cm rule is obsolete. It was never removed, when the orthopedic grips came in. It is like the 1mm travel rule in Foil. It is on the books, but has no meaning in the modern world.

The pictures above would be a good way to measure the 20cm rule up to a point. Measure a complete weapon, but make sure to allow that the strengthener is not part of the measurement. It is consider part of the blade.

Duelist · 03-17-2004, 11:12 PM

I am now thinking the dream epee for pommeling would be prieur-style grip with shermasport pommel and leon paul blade. Any input?

Windsor · 03-18-2004, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by veeco

Yes, Bruno left Prieur and has started his own business, now called Cartel Escrime. They have a website:

http://www.cartel-escrime.com

Word is that he didn't approve of the France-Lames -- Prieur merger and left because of that.

Any experience with his FIE gear?

veeco · 03-18-2004, 07:12 AM

I haven't tried his FIE gear, but it looks very light and better cut than Prieur.

Duelist · 03-18-2004, 10:54 PM

One last question. On the subject of colored BF blades, Artisan posted a long time ago that:

"The Blue are batch tested to a slightly higher number of bend cycles before failure than the gold. This does not mean they will last longer in general, but that they can sustain a higher number of moderate flexes before failing. The white ones can sustain fewer, but actually hold up better in the case of a few extreme bends - such as when you collide with someone, or step into a counterattack."

I do not quite understand what this means. I am going to either order a blue or white one and am wondering what the differences would be.

mfp · 03-19-2004, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DHCJr

Check out M.4.1 The maximum length is 20cm..

The maximum length is 20 cm, but what I believe veeco is getting at is that the distance to be checked isn't supposed to be measured along the grip but rather the distance between the "B" and "E" lines and ... what is the proper way to take that measurement? You mention that the pictures above are a way to do it "up to a point", but what up to what point, and is there a better way?

A handle assembly can be (slightly) longer than 20 cm, if when it's bent the distance between B and E is no more than the 20 cm max. So I guess it's a take home trig problem to calculate the max handle length that would still meet the 20 cm rule

DHCJr · 03-19-2004, 02:27 AM

Think about a spring you would buy for a door. When you measure how long a spring is, you do not measure round and round, you measure it at rest straight from end to end. It is the same for a handle. Just measure the length of it.

What I was talking about 'Up to a point', is what you have to do with any way you measure. What are you measuring? You are measuring the total length of the pommel, handle and guard. But what is consider the guard. The strengthener is not consider part of the guard, it is consider part of the blade.

You can not directly test the length unless you take apart the guard. So what you do even with a Gabarit, is mentally subtract the thickness of the guard from the B - E measurement and mentally add it to the blade length.