gender

[eri]

Gender questions
I have not been fencing very long so maybe i'm just unexposed
but...

in my fencing class, there are only 3 women (and about 30 men/boys). I know there ARE many professional female fencers but in my own little sphere, it seems like the sport is mostly male. Is it just in my head? I tried gauging the male/female ratio of the board too but couldnt really tell haha

...it bothers me a little; I feel like the coaches are easier on me because I'm a girl.

[veeco]

Fencing is a great sport in that a strong good female fencer can beat a middle level male fencer. Some will argue that it is even possible for a strong female fencer to beat a strong male fencer. However, there are less girls who take up the sport in my part of the world, despite attempts from our federation to entice more women to join.

I think the ratio here is about 1/3 women 2/3 men.

[eri]

Originally Posted by veeco

Fencing is a great sport in that a strong good female fencer can beat a middle level male fencer. Some will argue that it is even possible for a strong female fencer to beat a strong male fencer. However, there are less girls who take up the sport in my part of the world, despite attempts from our federation to entice more women to join.

I think the ratio here is about 1/3 women 2/3 men.

Hm ok... so if its generally understood that a woman fencer isnt strong enough to beat a male fencer at the same level, then do women compete only against other women (like in all other sports)? Sorry if this is a very basic question but I just dont know!

I'm just a bit frusrated in my class. I'm probably one of the top students but the teachers treat me a little differently, esp when we're doing bouts. Perhaps its mostly because we're all beginners but they are definitly not as aggressive w/ me than they are w/ the other students.

ps nice to meet you! i just joined the forums

[pkt]

eri,

welcome to the forum and the fraternity of fencers.

the underrepresentation of females in fencing is not unlike that in many spheres of the real world.

female participation in fencing should come down to the mistaken concept, to us any way, that fencing is a martial art. it IS, afterall, a contact sport.

in North america, fencing does not have the tradition of something like tennis or basketball. that said, look at golf, for goodness sakes, it's not even a contact sport but it it nevertheless considered a man's sport. consider the attempts of the LPGA players to break into the PGA circuit... you know the results.
ditto for fencing.
ditto for kendo.
ditto for karate, ad nauseum.

so in the meantime, recruit some of your friends to join you in fencing and see what happens...

good luck and enjoy the sport.

PK

[PainFence]

I would agree with Pkt. Women fencers has the same general potential as male fencers, which is to as each person can become as good as the physical and mental abilities will let them.

I am not sure about Fencing being a contact sport like football, since I really think a very good female fence and a very good male fencer should still be a good bout.

[Peach]

There are fewer female than male fencers, but since fencing depends on smarts and experience more than brawn or size, you can much of the time compete on an equal basis. At the national level the competition is same-sex, but at the local level it often is mixed competition, in age and in sex.

If you work hard and gain experience, you will be in the position that you can beat most people in mixed local tournaments, and in the competitions that really matter, which aren't mixed, you'll rule.

I generally finish high in mixed tournaments, though I'm a woman, and occasionally I win them. I seem to have more trouble with fencing experienced over-50 men than with teenaged boys, myself. My last two fencing tournaments, my first loss was to men on the national veterans (over-50) points list. I can't complain about that too much, since it was good experience for me (I'm an over-50 myself) and since one of those bouts was for the gold medal.

Your coaches might be treating you differently because generally speaking, women often work harder and improve without quite as much yelling and hitting, so they may not feel it's necessary. Some coaches are just better at working with one gender than another, too. Or they may be making sexist assumptions about your delicacy

[wflaschka]

I'm just a bit frusrated in my class. I'm probably one of the top students but the teachers treat me a little differently, esp when we're doing bouts. Perhaps its mostly because we're all beginners but they are definitly not as aggressive w/ me than they are w/ the other students.

Coaches can treat women differently for lots of reasons.

Male coaches are comfortable yelling at males, but may have some lingering respect for females.

Coaches will also cherish female fencers, because they're not as common but are fun to work with. Thus women are de facto standouts in a group, and communication with them takes the form of less abstract screaming across the room, and more normal talking.

Coaches may also worry about burn-out with female fencers, because core "female" strengths like tactics, brains and leg-strength start paying benefits later than the core "male" strengths like brute arm-strength and twitch speed; women sometimes go longer before their practice starts paying off. Women will quit for all sorts of reasons, and the coach may not know how to motivate them. (I once heard: "It's fun, but too caveman." She placed 2nd in her first tournament, and never fenced again.)

There are also the standard male-female dynamics like lasciviousness and sexism, which I've witnessed. More often, assume cluelessness before machismo.

There's also a weird old-world tradition, immigrant Euro coaches, they get kissed on the cheek by students after a lesson. I've only seen it in New York.

If you're treated "differently" and it's hurting your fencing, you'll have to bring it up with the coach. Be diplomatic, don't stress how the coach is wrong, but stress how the coach can be right -- let them know how serious you are, and willing to get beaten to a pulp if you're gonna get better. If being treated differently is helping your fencing, don't rock the boat.

Regarding gender performance, American women fencers sometimes seem to be more winning internationally than our male fencers. Cross, Smart, the Zimmermans, the Jacobsons (to name a few) are medalling as much or more than the male standouts. There are fewer female fencers overall, but the expectations for the good ones are quite high.

[scarlet_woman156k]

Originally Posted by eri

Hm ok... so if its generally understood that a woman fencer isnt strong enough to beat a male fencer at the same level, then do women compete only against other women (like in all other sports)? Sorry if this is a very basic question but I just dont know!

I'm just a bit frusrated in my class. I'm probably one of the top students but the teachers treat me a little differently, esp when we're doing bouts. Perhaps its mostly because we're all beginners but they are definitly not as aggressive w/ me than they are w/ the other students.

ps nice to meet you! i just joined the forums

In my Division (Illinois) and Section (Midwest) there are few competitive females in my weapon. To not fence in the men's competitions and exclusively the women's, is to really stunt my competitive growth as a female fencer on the national level. I have been moderately to very successful in local men's competitions. I find the local men's competitions a lot more fun and energetic than that of the women's.

I have talked to other female fencers at national comps, and I find that this is not an odd situation: lack of female fencers in their area. There are less women in the USFA than men, and when you spread them out over the US, the local competition can be thin, and even weak...obviously there are exceptions to this, however.

You would do well to train and compete with men, but realize also that women's styles of fencing can be very different from that of men. You'll know what I mean if you start to compete. But that does not mean you shouldn't engage with male fencers.

Men are typically faster and stronger than women, bodies are built differently, of course, but that doesn't mean you can't beat a man. I've done so plenty of times, and men that would be considered "my level."

As for treating you differently, it could mean any number of reasons. I know my coach is "nicer" to new fencers because they are just starting to get to know each other. Why start pushing a student right off the bat, it may freak them out. Not like my coach is ever "mean," but I believe there needs to be a certain level of trust, committment, and understanding between the coach and student prior to there being a more aggressive direction given by the coach. This may or may not be the case in your situation. I would just watch and observe...I'm sure if you are a hard working student, the coach is very aware of it.

Good luck to you!

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by wflaschka

Coaches can treat women differently for lots of reasons.
...

This entire post was great, but for ease of reading I just used the first sentence...

That said, coaching females is different than coaching males.

Young boys have a harder time with the fine motor control and tend to not listen, unless yelled at and broken down by the coach.

Young girls, tend to be responsive to criticism and are much better at the fine motor control neccessary for fencing, but can lack the overall strength in the hand to execute some actions correctly.

When I was coaching it was very apparent to me that I could yell and push my boys very differently from most of the girls that I coached. The boys responded by trying to imitate me as much as possible, and that included some not so great habits.

The girls on the other hand were attentive and needed to pushed in different ways. A lot of focus on the positive aspects of their performance, and very little focus on anything negative they had done.

This of course wasn't true for all. I had 2 girls that definitely responded much more like the boys, and 1 boy who responded very much like the girls.

As a coach, it takes time to realize who the student is, and what they method of coaching they respond to. Some students need (and want) to be yelled at and pushed, and others want to be praised.

If your class is relatively new, give your coach time to recognize what you need, and what you are capable of. If further down the line, the coach can't provide you what you need, then get a different coach.

[Sabresque]

Originally Posted by wflaschka

There's also a weird old-world tradition, immigrant Euro coaches, they get kissed on the cheek by students after a lesson. I've only seen it in New York.

Our South American fencers do this too. I think everyone but us does the kissing thing, lol.

Anyways, eri, if you feel you are being treated differently in a bad way, please talk to your coach. It will probably show him how serious you are about learning the sport etc. Usually that turns those people around. When I was younger, I was the first girl ever to wrestle competitively for my middle school. I'm sure the coaches really didn't know what to do with me (and many parents protested), but by showing them how serious I was, and working hard, the coaches had no problem treating me more or less like one of the guys.

Though their seems to be a shortage of woman fencers where you live, there are many places where there are scores of us, and if you start competing at local or maybe divisional tournaments it gets much better. I encourage you to, if you have a little extra dough, buy a tape of world championship or olympic fencing, and watch those women go. Just for motivation.

I am one of those who believes that women should, in theory, be able to compete with men on equal ground even in the highest levels of fencing. Of course, this probably won't be given a chance, since women fence women, and men fence men in everything beyond the local level. Also, each gender has formed their own sort of style that in some ways aren't completely compatable.

Good luck with your class, and forgive my long-winded response!

[edew]

Originally Posted by eri

Hm ok... so if its generally understood that a woman fencer isnt strong enough to beat a male fencer at the same level, then do women compete only against other women (like in all other sports)? Sorry if this is a very basic question but I just dont know!

I'm just a bit frusrated in my class. I'm probably one of the top students but the teachers treat me a little differently, esp when we're doing bouts. Perhaps its mostly because we're all beginners but they are definitly not as aggressive w/ me than they are w/ the other students.

ps nice to meet you! i just joined the forums

That doesn't make sense. A woman and a man at the same level should alternatively beat each other. Otherwise, they're at a different level. (Sorta like asking, which is heavier, 10 lbs of bricks or 10 lbs of cotton?)

The point is that the top level of men's fencing is much higher than the top level of women's fencing, measured locally or nationally or internationally.

[jBirch]

Eri,

Coaching women is much different then coaching men. To start, how do you deal with a thirty year old who is crying after losing a hard fought point? Kick him?

Part of the problem in the sport now is that much of the coaching staff is men and most of them don't have the skills to teach women. The few top level female coaches that are around, were usually taught by men and tend to treat female fencers like young men ('cause that's how they learned) or worse.

That said, I have seen many really good female fencers up here and the more women that come out and meet these role models, the more that stay in spite of the men. I find that the sport is characterised as a male sport (like figure skating is characterised as a female sport) and so the women that do come out initially find themselves contending with doing unfeminine things and being treated like guys. As well, their parents, especially the mothers, want them to do something more interesting, like dance or soccer or gymnastics. If the women are not treated like guys by the coach, the pendulum tends to swing the other way and they are treated much more delicately in an effort to tailor the lessons to their differences. I know I feel very uncomfortable when I yell at one of my fencers and they go away crying. I feel even worse when we're working on a problem and they are crying through the mask 'cause they are so frustrated that they just can't get it.

Further, there are other, more delicate issues that are hard to talk about with young women in particular. Why do they look at you crosseyed when you tell them that they have to put the breast protectors inside their bra because the stupid things move around in the little fabric pockets? How do you as a coach know when they are trying to get out of doing footwork drills as opposed to having a menstrual emergency?

As a more subtle case in point, I was taking video of some of my students so that they could see what they were doing when they lunged and we could talk about what was good, what was bad and how we would emphasise the former and remove the latter. I didn't realise that the women were looking at the tape and seeing only how much they sucked, how ugly they were and how everyone was better then them. Just didn't realise it and so didn't realise that they would dread me filming and cry in the bathroom afterwards.

As a flipside problem, I had a young women who was having a hard time hitting her opponent in sabre: she was afraid she'd hurt him. I told her to think of her little brother sneaking into her room when she had her boyfriend over. Now, I have to figure out how to teach her not to hit her opponent so bloody hard and how to slow down enough to outfox the little blighter instead of constantly running into his counter-attacks. *sigh* At least she's not afraid to hit anymore.

Most men just don't understand this. My advice is to learn what you can and understand that the coach is trying. Men deal best with straight talk. Tell them that you don't need to be treated like a girl, thank you very much, and that everytime they do, you'll bat your eyes and ask if a big strong man could show you the proper technique. They'll get it soon enough.

In the meantime, suck it up princess. You're there to fence, not be coddled, cuddled or ogled. Fence anyone that comes in range and work on beating them all. After all, how girly do you have to be to have trouble with a foil?

Hope this helps.

[Aeric]

Originally Posted by wflaschka

communication with them takes the form of less abstract screaming across the room, and more normal talking.

Heh, so true. I have a coach who will be on the other side of the venue, and happen to glance in my direction as I do something particularly stupid (but get away with it). Then he'll do his long striding march over to me while shouting stuff at me as loud as possible. He even wakes up the spectators that happen to be asleep at the competition.

Not too subtle when the opponent happens to be listening (which is difficult NOT to do).

[nahouw]

Originally Posted by wflaschka

Coaches can treat women differently for lots of reasons.

Male coaches are comfortable yelling at males, but may have some lingering respect for females.

Wflaschka is right -- there are different coaches, and some are good with coaching specifically women, and others just don't know how to approach coaching women. Especially in fencing, you need to have correction from your coach, and sometimes women don't take correction well -- they hear it as criticism and quit the sport, and I am sure that is why your coach is cautious in giving you this feedback, because he doesn't want you to quit.

In general, when coaching in any sport, a coach can yell, and a man will take it as a constructive message to improve, while a woman will perceive it as a negative criticism and tend to quit.

I know with my own coach, he is comfortable in yelling at me because he knows that I understand it to be a correction and not a criticism. But what I do notice that I find different than if I were a man are 2 things: if I realize by his correction that I did something wrong, I apologize to him for my error, and if I feel that he is wrong in correcting me, I yell back at him. Now, if I were a man, I wouldn't have any reaction and wouldn't say anything to him, and just process this new information. But since he is a coach that understands women, he allows me to talk back to him.

I think that if you give the cue to your coach that you appreciate him correcting you, then he would be more comfortable in treating you just like the men -- you have to give him a signal that you understand that he is correcting you and not criticizing you.

[nahouw]

Originally Posted by achilleus

As a coach, it takes time to realize who the student is, and what they method of coaching they respond to. Some students need (and want) to be yelled at and pushed, and others want to be praised.

This is so true... we once had a female fencer in the club who was coached by a female coach who always yelled at her. When this coach left the club, the fencer started taking lessons with a male coach who was a bit more laid-back and didn't yell much, since that wasn't his stlye of coaching. The fencer finally asked the new coach why he didn't yell at her like the old coach did.

[eri]

Originally Posted by jBirch

...
My advice is to learn what you can and understand that the coach is trying. Tell them that you don't need to be treated like a girl, thank you very much, and that everytime they do, you'll bat your eyes and ask if a big strong man could show you the proper technique. ...
Hope this helps.

haha thanks, that does help.

I never thought my coaches were being outright sexist. Rather, I thought they assumed most women would never be serious about the sport. For example, our lead coach said to a strong male student, "Oh I see you've been practicing fencing." To me he said, "Oh...did you take ballet before or something?" I'm still in my early 20's and seem to project a super girly girl image and ...yeah, I did take ballet....sigh

Originally Posted by nahouw

I think that if you give the cue to your coach that you appreciate him correcting you, then he would be more comfortable in treating you just like the men -- you have to give him a signal that you understand that he is correcting you and not criticizing you.

I'll try this and see. It is not something that bothers me significantly right now - but I think it could really hurt me in the long run if I'm never seriously challenged. I'll be patient and prove to them that I can handle whatever they can give. I wonder if other women have had similar experiences before.

And what do you all mean by men and women developing different fencing styles? At this point of my training, everyone looks the same (i.e. very bad)

[leia]

lol,
well im the only female (currently) fencing at school with about 15 guys.
that will change as soon as it is time to recruit.
cept im not likely to get any special treatment as our coach is feamle 2.
however, ive heard the other guys comment that in tournaments they never want to attack the girls.... and i suspect the same goes for me in training..
not that would ever need to worry about not going to hard on me cause they r like 10 times more experienced than me.... and quite alot taller... and stronger... and older...

leia

[Catlady]

What you're describing is pretty much the norm I guess. What's odd is when I started fencing most of the people who started with me were women, but now five years later there were only three women active in the club (four actually, but the fourth had a baby and is far too busy to fence anymore). I don't know why more don't stick around, other than getting married, especially to a non-fencer seems to be the kiss of death for both genders. I've never found anything "cave-man" in fencing, but then I've always been a tomboy and enjoy beating up on the opposite sex (not that I ever manage to, but it's an appealing idea) and if anything I tend to be too aggressive when I fence.
I know what you mean about feeling strange about being treated differently. I say that if they want to give you an advantage by not fencing as hard against you take it! I can't, everyone at my club all ready knows what I'm like.

There are a few things that bother me about what some people have said. Why is it that some of you assume that women will cry after losing bouts? Granted some do, but in my case I tend to go ballistic rather than break down. Though I think a coach who talked about the difference between coaching men and women had it right when he said, that in cases where men might start swearing at the coach or whomever, women will cry. I wonder why in general completely pitching a fit is more acceptable than gettting emotional. As for how you deal with the crying, male or female, is let them get it out of their system, then talk to them, the same goes for someone who gets mad. And I will point out that there is a junior fencer who has a reputation for crying all the time, guess what? The fencer in question is a boy--a young granted, but he always cries, even when it hardly seems appropriate, you lose bouts, you live with it, you can't win all the time after all.
Another thing, why is it that we can't seem to get past the perception that women are somehow handicapped when they're on their period. We aren't. Some of us do have killer cramps once in a while--myself included and I wish men had to put up with them once in a while--but for the most part we can function just fine. So how do you know if they're having a "menstrual emergency"? The same way you tell if anyone else is faking something to get out of footwork--I mean don't you sort of know when someone claims to be sick and you know they're not. In my case, I don't use my period as an excuse even if I am having cramps because frankly, sooner or later we all have to bout under less than optimum conditions--you didn't get enough sleep, you have a headache, and heaven knows if you're lucky enough to get to finals, you'll be good and tired regardless,etc., --so I might as well get used to the sensation. But if it's someone who usually doesn't try to slack off and they look unwell, (or there's blood leaking through their knickers ) then they're probably having an emergency, otherwise, they're not. One way to deal with the breast protector issue is to get a one piece one. I prefer those anyway, and you don't have to put them under your bra, or else tell them to wear a sports bra over their shirts and put the protectors under that--frankly if they don't have their own protectors they probably don't want something next to their skin that someone else has been sweating on anyway. Also, do you have any more experienced female fencers around? If so, they can advise the newer females on "girl stuff" if you're too embarassed to do it (and I know that teenage girls go through a period where even though they wear one, any mention of a bra makes them want to melt into the floor, but just ignore it they'll do that regardless of who tells them I know I'd slink through the lingerie department as if I were a spy even though the only people who would see me would be other women who were there for the same purpose, when I was younger).

Finally, the easy solution to the yelling problem, is don't yell, at anyone. There are more effective ways to communicate--granted I must admit, that I tend to yell when I get upset too, but it's not a good thing to do. And I know people don't listen sometimes, and it's frustrating, but at least don't yell as the first resort.
While perhaps the best female and the best male fencer wouldn't be equal the truth is some women can beat some men. In local tournaments it's not completely unheard of for a woman to win, or place high if she's good. As someone said fencing, while arguably a contact sport, is not all about brute strength, look at the variations among even male fencers, the strongest person doesn't always win.
As for the male v. the female game I am confused. I realize women and men are built differently--there are certain exercises that women can do naturally and men have real problems with and vice versa-- and that makes a difference. However, there seems to be a perception that the men's game is somehow better than the women's. I had the following conversation with a male member of my club when we were talking about among other things, the woman who was working with the juniors. The man mentioned that because she was a woman she couldn't coach men properly ( and there's the implication that somehow the way men fence is a better way to fence than the way women do). I wanted him to tell me the differences in the game so I could fence more like a man--the logic being that, of course, being of the "weaker sex" I wouldn't be able to fence like a man as effectively as a man would, but since that game is so superior, then wouldn't my ineffective imitation of how men fence give me an advantage over someone who fenced better but fenced like a woman--then he balks on it and wonder why I would want to do it.
Just another thing, I find funny. One of my coaches makes everyone do twenty push-ups on their finger tips every time he teaches a class and the women both have use the male push-up position and do the same number as the men and he certainly chases everyone up and down strip vigorously regardless of gender, but we were moving some things around the club and I picked up a piece of wood. It wasn't that heavy and I really wasn't having that much trouble holding it, but he immediately rushed over and took it from me and had me hold the hammer instead, so I would hurt myself I suppose I find the disconnect funny. Twenty finger-tip push-ups are no hardship, but picking up a piece of wood or taking out the garbage can, might kill me?!?
I've ranted enough, not that's it's anything new for those who know me, but I though I might clear a few things up.

[achilleus]

Quite a long post, but I just wanted to point out a few things

Originally Posted by Catlady

Why is it that some of you assume that women will cry after losing bouts? Granted some do, but in my case I tend to go ballistic rather than break down. Though I think a coach who talked about the difference between coaching men and women had it right when he said, that in cases where men might start swearing at the coach or whomever, women will cry. I wonder why in general completely pitching a fit is more acceptable than gettting emotional. As for how you deal with the crying, male or female, is let them get it out of their system, then talk to them, the same goes for someone who gets mad.

Well, the answer to these questions is quite easy. Most fencing coaches are men. Most men have no idea what to do when a women cries, for any reason. In our society it's perfectly acceptable for a man to swear and throw a fit, but not to cry.

That said, I don't neccessarily think that's the best way to handle someone who throws a fit or cries after a bout. Coaching young kids, the kids learned very quickly certain behavior was unacceptable. At the time, the parents thanked me, now, the kids who are grown thank me for what I taught them.

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