French vs. Pistol

[Zappa]

The debate never ends. Which is better the french grip or the pistol grip? I myself prefer the pistol, as do most of the people in my club. Whenever we have the age old argument, some "classical" fencers who uses a french grip always plays the point control card. I have not found this to be true, however. I have also never seen any fencer win a USFA tournament using a french grip.
To me the issue is simple; Do I want my foil in my hand or on the floor? Anyway what do you guys think? Am I wrong?

[attila]

This debate will never end. It really isn't so much about the tool but how well you use the tool. A fine fencer will kick yer *** with a broom handle. But only HE or SHE can use it that way. Looking at a grip only as a tool ,I know the ortho can be use in more positions and has more leaverage application possibilities.I only know one guy who has won a world event with a french grip ( Paul of Britain won the world vet foil this year) with a french grip. In epee I think Obry of France uses one. Seems like more epeeists usr the French grip because of the length advantage.Bottom line --use whatever you feel like.

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"Kill the men, save the women, and by the gods, do not spill the wine"

[damianip]

It is an endless debate, but I think in sport fencing, it is only relevant in épée.

In foil, no one at the highest levels uses a French. However in épée we have the following examples:

Three out of four members of the gold medal Italian épée team used French grips in the Olympics:

Milanoli, Randazzo, and Mazzoni.

On the French team, the only consistent Frenchman in the team final was Srecki who also used one.

Mazzoni has been a dominant fencer for the past twenty years, as was Srecki. Randazzo has two team Olympic golds. Milanoli is currently ranked fourth in the world.

I believe Jon Normile uses one. Jose Abajo of Spain does as well a couple of the the top Cubans.

Laura Flessel-Colovic uses one also. BTW, Obry uses an ortho.

Is it the grip? Probably not. It's everything else that makes them great fencers. However, these guys chose the French and adopted the style necessary to be successful with it.

On a personal note, I've been using a French pretty much exclusively for the last six months, and I've been getting crushed. The other night, I was so tired I couldn't grip the thing so I grabbed one of my son's orthos.

The result, instant increase in touches. Was it the grip? Probably not. Since I've been using the French, I've had to be more careful about distance and blade contact. It's been slow going, but, when I picked up the ortho, the stronger grip, combined with the progress I've been forced to make with the French, allowed the touches to come a little easier.

Will I switch back to the ortho? No, since I'm never going to be a top competitor, I want to at least adopt the style I find the most appealing, regardless of whether I get more touches.

Paolo

[This message has been edited by damianip (edited 05-19-2001).]

[Gajuith]

I think the argument is akin to comparing schools of thought...or styles of martial arts. If so-and-so fenced so-and-so...who would win? Fun to speculate though...I think both grips have their uses. Like I said in the similar topic, I practice with french because it develops discipline and smaller blade movement. Then I compete with pistol(visconti) because I find it easier and I can angulate around parries faster and with more accuracy.

[neevel]

To add to Atilla's point, even top level foilists who otherwise have a big-time classicist streak (like '92 Olympic MF gold medallist Phillipe Omnes) use orthos in competition.

-Dave

[edew]

In the US, I only know of two foil fencers who compete at a high level with a french grip: David Comas (who was pretty good in the mid-to-late 80s) and Frank Fox (who was also good during that period). Frank eventually went to a pistol grip later in his fencing career.

Currently, Cassidy Lutjen uses a french grip and has been pretty successful in the junior circuit, and somewhat successful in the senior circuit. I don't know how far she'll advance using the french grip.

A lot of epee fencers, however, use the french grip and use it successfully.

There are no currently used pistol sabre grips.

[d8m2k]

Reka Szabo-L.? (ROM) uses a french grip for foil.
She lost to Vezzali in Sydney, in overtime, to make the 4.

I am always amazed people argue about such a personal choice as a grip. The grip, shoes, uniform don't really make a difference. It's all about the athlete.

[This message has been edited by d8m2k (edited 05-21-2001).]

[darius]

The personal stuff *does* make a difference. Not enough to warrant flame wars, but it's interesting to see what people use.

I'm not suggesting that the grip makes the fencer ("It's not the shoes..."), but at the same time, knowing what certain people do is a good thing.

It's far more important to understand the reason people do what they do. For example: using a small visconti rather than a bigger one, to place the hand up close to the bell guard and facilitate stronger flicks. This goes for everything from gear choice to technique.

darius

[Oor Wullie]

Interestingly enough, the grip Graham Paul would have been using to win the Vets is not the standard French grip, but rather a customised version that Paul have recently developed. It's made out of some very light material or other, and is about twice as thick as a normal French Grip, although much lighter. It is of regulation length, but the design allows it to be gripped closer to the end, thus giving more reach. I've seen Graham Paul in action with it, and it seems to work for him. I'm not sure how well it's selling, though.

The French grip does seem to be more prevalent in Epee than in Foil, and I wonder how much that has to do with flicking. As well as the other obvious benefits mentioned above for the ortho grip, it does make it a lot easier to flick, although I know a man who does flick with a French grip.

[neevel]

Here's a photo of the Paul grip:



Note that is uses an ortho style nut rather than a french pommel.

-Dave

[arcon]

[ 10-23-2001: Message edited by: arcon ]

[big poppa]

After looking at the paul french grip I have only one question,didn't the LAPD beat Rodney King with one of those things?

[Zappa]

I think you right. It does look very much like a club.