Nothing Seems To Work...

[Reebek]

Advance apologies for a whiney post.

Advice, please...

I've been fencing for 4 years. I train 3+ days a week for 2+hours, do group and private lessons, dropped foil to concentrate solely on epee, and have given up most things non-fencing related save work. Despite all this, I'm still unclassified and can't seem to have more than marginal success at competitions. Today, a guy who's been fencing half as long as I have, and who trains less than half as much beat me in a DE - mostly because I did some really stupid things on the strip. I came in dead last. Next week, I get to go to Arlington with the bitter taste of defeat still fresh and no real solution in sight. I seem to fence well at the club, but tank BIG at tournements. It's gotten so that I actually dread going to them.

What more can I do? I like fencing, but I'm starting to think maybe I picked the wrong sport...

[veeco]

Are you having fun fencing? If that's the case, that's a good start, unless you picked fencing only because you thought you'd be very good at it and that you're in it only for the medals. Unfortunately, as with most sports, part of being good is also caused by the enjoyment you get out of it.

Your post is pretty much focused on the fact that you are not getting good results, but it doesn't seem like you have isolated the cause of this. Perhaps you should start by this. Find the reason why you are not doing well in tournaments and focus on getting rid of it. It could be because you are too nervous, it could be because you put too much pressure on yourself, expect to doing well and that you end up choking. It could be that you don't have a clear mind. It could be that you are so willing to do well that you actually overtrain before tournaments and get there tired.

Don't worry too much about not doing well in Arlington. Just get there, have fun, chat with the people in your pool and try and make some connections, and have friends. Part of the experience is also the "people experience". I have met more wonderful people through fencing than anywhere else in my life.

[Tireur]

Why don't you concentrate on local, then regional events first. Until you can do well there, the big national tournaments are just a fencing vacation.

Be the best in your club, then your division, then your section, then.............

There is no "solution" to this. Just work hard and practice.

What does your coach say?

[jBirch]

Reebek,

I'm sure you know this, but what it seems to be, judging from your post, is your brain. *grin* I often find myself doing stupid, complicated actions because I know how to do them and getting frustrated when my opponent does something simple. Go back to the basics, direct thrust, attack, 4 and 6 parry, straight arm, etc... You know what you're doing, just go out there and do it.

I've found that, the following helps me:

In competition, keep only one thought upper most in your brain:

HIT THE TARGET!

Take it easy.

[telkanuru]

Yeah, I find myself sometimes in the same boat. Fencing for three years, no rating. I've missed such a thing twice by 2 points. My resolution? A better coach. I definitely need one, or at least make my current one give lessons. Ah, the pains of only fencing with a school. Anyway.

I find the more USFA events I go to, the better, even if the tourney is much too advanced. No better training than getting eaten by lions. Seriously. Oh, well. I'm to try again at Northampton on the 21st we'll see.

[scarlet_woman156k]

Originally Posted by veeco

Are you having fun fencing? If that's the case, that's a good start, unless you picked fencing only because you thought you'd be very good at it and that you're in it only for the medals. Unfortunately, as with most sports, part of being good is also caused by the enjoyment you get out of it.

Your post is pretty much focused on the fact that you are not getting good results, but it doesn't seem like you have isolated the cause of this. Perhaps you should start by this. Find the reason why you are not doing well in tournaments and focus on getting rid of it. It could be because you are too nervous, it could be because you put too much pressure on yourself, expect to doing well and that you end up choking. It could be that you don't have a clear mind. It could be that you are so willing to do well that you actually overtrain before tournaments and get there tired.

Don't worry too much about not doing well in Arlington. Just get there, have fun, chat with the people in your pool and try and make some connections, and have friends. Part of the experience is also the "people experience". I have met more wonderful people through fencing than anywhere else in my life.

GOOD GOD, LISTEN TO THIS MAN!

Fencing has got to be fun. I had a freak out at the last Div I, and totally choked/bombed because I was more focused on what if I don't do well instead of clearing my head and doing what I like doing best: fencing. I also had been ultra-obsessed with perfection of my execution/technique during bouts and getting down on myself even after I got the touch, or won the bout, because it just wasn't good enough. Talk about self defeat. I had to do some serious "searching" after San Jose as to why I am involved in the sport, and letting go of the absolute desire for perfection and worrying about results...it was making me very miserable.

Anyway, listen to veeco's advice, he knows what he's talking about.

[Reebek]

I probably should have mentioned that I got a late start. I'm now dangerously close to veteran age without veteran experience. Of course, the person who defeated me in the DE was also a late starter, and already of veteran age, and fences at my club where I usually do much better against him.

To answer Tireur's question "What does the coach say", he says "Fence more tournaments - all you can get to." He think's I'm choking, too. It's starting to look like I'm a real Head Case.

Veeco - The people I've met through fencing are one of the reasons I'm still doing it. Thank you for reminding me of that.

[Peach]

I also began as a veteran, and one of the best bits of advice I got was from my daughter at an NAC. I was panicking because I had gotten farther than I expected and was about to get destroyed. She sat me down and said to me, "You know why you do this, Mom? You do this to have FUN!" So I agree with Veeco and Scarlet Woman.

Most people have problems with competition. For whatever reason: We want to win, we don't want to lose, we don't really want to win, we prefer losing, we want to have something to blame, we want to brag about ourselves, we have unrealistic expectations, or we have over-realistic expectations. Part of the fun of fencing is figuring out how to deal with those feelings. It's a gruesome job, but someone has to do it.

Some of us also improve more slowly than others, and there ain't nothing wrong with that. One of the fascinating things about fencing is how long it takes to learn to do it well. Like you, I've devoted time, effort, intensity, and focus to this task and I still lose bouts. I just tend to lose them at a higher level these days, and with more finesse. Today I lost a bout to a highly ranked over-50 men's sabre fencer and was eliminated thereby, and was happy about it. Like you, I'm going to Arlington next week and the function of the pre-tournament tournament for me is to get the stupids out so I don't do that in Arlington. So remember: whatever you did that was stupid in this tournament, don't do that. Even if you do something stupid that's different, at least you're not repeating yourself.

As jBirch says, the other thing to remember is that the pointy end goes in the opponent. As my coach occasionally ruefully says, the hardest thing for people to do is to stick an arm out and HIT.

[Victor]

If you want to win, REALLY WANT to win, and you're all excited and anxious and frustrated about performing well because you haven't met that self-imposed standard yet ...

You're going to lose.

That's why people keep saying, "Have fun! Enjoy yourself!" ... Those suggestions by themselves probably won't help you overcome the problem because, sure, winning is fun. ((DUH!)) So you want to win and have fun. No help.

The point is that "having fun" while you're fencing is supposed to help you relax so you don't fence with the tension of a drowning man. You've got to learn to fence with all your fencing skills, but with absolutely none of the tension of proving you've got 'em.

I gots no shortcuts to share, dude. I hope you can find your way. Gotta trust yourself and believe believe believe you're going to be OK.

[Inquartata]

Yep. Paradoxically, the more they want to win the worse some people do, and conversely the less you care about winning the better they do. I'm one of these. Best result I ever had was when I looked at a pool sheet, saw a bunch of As and Bs, decided I was doomed and would just try to have fun and fence well. Came out of the pool 5 and 1 in a sort of "WTF?" daze. Unfortunately, forcing myself to take this approach has proved...difficult. "Relax" is easier said than done.

[danp]

Reebek,

Thanks for posting your dilemma - I've been going through the exact same situation with my fencing, and at very least it's nice to know someone else is having the same issue... I've been at this for over a year, and though I feel I've come a long way in a short time, my tournament results never mirror my practices.

I think I focus so much on winning that the feeling of "flow" in practice is elusive. I tense up, and lose the ability to be patient and think my way through a bout. The fact is that as much as I love fencing, I WANT that win so much it makes me unbalanced... I don't stay in the game. At some point in the tournament, I realize that I'm already doing poorly - so what the heck - just go fence and screw the results! All of a sudden my results get better.

Usually my first several bouts at a tournament are just awful.. I lose to guys I regularly beat at my club, and with each loss the frustration grows. Fencing is tough, because you *start* with 5 point bouts. There isn't a lot of time to get your bearings... Man, if it weren't for DE's ;-)

People who are naturally capable of rising to the occassion under the duress of competition amaze me. I remember watching Boris Becker when he won Wimbledon for the first time as a teenager... He was just so pumped - and I got the impression that he could care less if it were Wimbledon or a parking lot, he just loved to slam the ball. It was like some invisible deamon was pushing him to succeed, and everything else was blocked out...

Perhaps the trick is that you've got to love the thrill of competition more than you want to win. Maybe it's narcissism? Hell if I know.

-Dan

Originally Posted by Reebek

Advance apologies for a whiney post.

What more can I do? I like fencing, but I'm starting to think maybe I picked the wrong sport...

[Zilverzmurfen]

I totally agree with veeco!

What he says is the essence of fencing I think. Atleast to me it is. Relax and have fun!

However, perhaps you're just fencing too much?
I've experienced that periodically nothing seems to work. You try real hard and are just SO determined to make it work that you just lose all the time.

If that is your case it might be a good idea to take a TimeOut from fencing. Try to keep in shape by swimming, working out, cycling, jogging, wightlifting or whatever suits you. Get back to fencing after a couple of weeks and I'm sure you'll find joy and inspiration again.

This might not work for you, I'm just talking from my own experience.
Good luck and don't forget to have F U N!

[The0ne]

Hey reebek,
you say you're from the northeast, does that mean the northeast division?

[Reebek]

Originally Posted by The0ne

Hey reebek,
you say you're from the northeast, does that mean the northeast division?

It does...

[Craig]

My two second assessment is that it's your mental game. Like what veeco and Peach have said.

Just to put it in perspective, I had some of my best tournament results when I went out with the attitude of "Know what? I don't give a damn." That gave me the freedom to ignore my final placement and focus on the point at hand. It also gave me the freedom to take the risks you have to take to earn good touches.

Enjoy yourself, concentrate on the moment, and the rest will come.

Craig

[mlr2fence]

Do you have someone who can video your bouts so you can analyze them later? Also try coming up with one or two goals for each tournament to work on, that way if you achieve it you will feel successful instead of the "I failed to medal" mood. Your goals could be something such as fixing a flaw in your fencing postion to using a new action. Eventually your goals will get more complicated and the results will also probably improve. It can also take some of the nervousness away since the focus is on something like 'keeping my foot in the proper position on a lunge' instead of 'I really did a stupid action and lost.' Remember--of all the fencers in the event only one will come away with the gold so find something else to give you that sense of achievement. Enjoy the experience.

[frenzl]

it's all mental. i think it's less of a happiness or fun thing but i could be more of a confidence thing. just stop thinking all together and let your muscle memory take over, just react don't think too much.

[Tomas N]

Reebek and everyone,

It's frustrating, but some people are just better athletes than others. Some folks have better hand-eye coordination. Some folks are cooler in competition. Some folks remember moves more clearly. Some people see the action more clearly. Some folks have a better sense of rhythm. Some folks don't have joint problems. Some folks have much better coaches, or coaches with whom they can communicate. The list goes on. One thing you seem to have is a remarkable dedication to the sport, and that, ultimately, should overcome many other weaknesses. But I would recommend that after 4 years of fencing with lots of fencing in tournaments, that you either need to get more 1-on-1 lessons with your current coach or find a different one who can see where you need to improve more clearly. Changing your attitude will make you happier, but it won't necessarily make you a good enough fencer to win a tournament.

Tomas

[Artisan]

... at the risk of striking a deceased equine....
Fencing continues to surprise me how much of a mental game it is. Sure, technique, training, conditioning, form... the list of elements required for success is long...but without the prerequisite ATTITUDE... they are all just tools in a toolbox that will only collect dust.

Seems Reebek has constructed a self perpetuating negative reinforcement, based on wanting the big picture too far ahead of wanting the little things. Want to make that parry ripost correctly first. Make the double advance lunge with the correct tempo every time. Call these your victories and have fun doing it. Start doing it in practice bouts, then in competitive bouts. Reinforce the positive, and let yourself off the hook when you screw up - that inner voice that says "you suck" doesn't help you improve or try harder. It may energize you, but it is the energy of anxiety, which does not contribute to focus and concentration.

At a recent tournament I succesfully managed my own psychology: I was in the minority of "E" fencers at a strong A4 competiton. As I looked at the field the day before I felt the anxiety grow..."what a waste of airfare" the voice echoed.
Pools; first bout, I lose 5-2 to a "B" - barely had a chance to get going it was over so quickly. I calm down and focus. Next bout I defeat a "C" - nows he's in my shoes - wondering what happened. Third bout I'm ahead 4-1 but give up 3 in a row to the A in the pool (overconfidence - another bad one) But I win with a true Labelle touch - carefully set up and executed as if in a lesson. At that point I felt no matter what happened the rest of the weekend - I had succeeded. It was so sweet - just that one touch - that one win. With that under my belt I went on to go further in that competition than I have ever gone before - in fact very narrowly missing a "B" - losing in overtime with seconds left and my priority. The whole time the voice is saying "what are YOU doing here?" But since I had that labelle touch from the pools - I was already satisfied, had nothing to lose and fenced well and relaxed, because all the DE bouts were gravey - and really FUN!

[MyraTrue]

I must agree with danp- I know what that feels like.

I know that when people say, "oh, you fence. Are you any good?" You don't really feel like defending your entire life outside of work by saying, "I have fun!" You'd like to at least say "I'm rated E '04" and leave it with that mysterious letter and number combination.

I know that I use to (and largely still do) fence 5 days a week, tournament most weekends, and still, for everything I put into it, it seems like I'm a poor fencer for it. I know just what you mean about people just blowing right past you, who didn't work nearly as hard.

But I realized I do this because I like it. I like the fact that I can stab you in the toe and run away. I like that I can hit you first, and I like that I can hit you at the same time. I've come to the decision that I want to enjoy these bouts, and I think as long as I fence as best I am able, then I am happy with how I fenced. No matter if I won or lost.

I got the job of women's epee captain. It scared me half to death- how could I coach these women when I only had 1 1/2 years of epee? So I tell them to "go, stab her, stab her first, and stab her more times than she stabs you." And they have fun. And sometimes they win, and sometimes they don't.

And I realized, the same applies to my fencing, and I stopped worrying about not having a letter, or not being able to beat people. I know I'm getting better, and I'll bet you are too. Stick with it, and have fun! You do this cause you want to, because you love to, because you are addicted. And thats perfect.

So go to Arlington, watch the fencers, chat with the nice ones, drool on the equipment if there are venders, and enjoy it. Who cares how you rank you. Fence your best, and see if you can learn one thing to change, or to learn to do, and make it a goal. And enjoy it! I'd rather be there!!