Sectional and Div2/div3 qualifers

[ShadowHuntr]

OK, i will try to make this as understandable as i possibly can, but i imagine it will still be confusing.
First off, for whatever reason my division decided to combine the mid-atlantic sectional qualifers with the div2/div3 (and other national qualifers) into 1 large tournament. (I didn't know they were even allowed to do this.) The question I have is this, first off what are the NEW rules for qualifing div 2 / div 3. I heard for div 2 it was the top 25% of c and under and for div 3 top 25% of d and under. I also want to know what the qualifing percentage is for sectionals from this tournament.

That was probably rambling and if you have any questions i will try to clarify what im talking about as much as possible.

[CvilleFencer]

[QUOTE=ShadowHuntr]First off, for whatever reason my division decided to combine the mid-atlantic sectional qualifers with the div2/div3 (and other national qualifers) into 1 large tournament. (I didn't know they were even allowed to do this.) The question I have is this, first off what are the NEW rules for qualifing div 2 / div 3. I heard for div 2 it was the top 25% of c and under and for div 3 top 25% of d and under. I also want to know what the qualifing percentage is for sectionals from this tournament.
[QUOTE]

I did not know that was legal either, but if your division is doing it that is the way it is being done for your division this year. It does have a certain appeal as you would only have to hire directors for one weekend if you were a small division/section, but I would think the paperwork would be a bit of a hassle.

As to Sectional qual paths, I am not the best person to ask about that. The way I think it works is that if you are not already qualified through the div II/III pathways or by having national point’s etc., then all of those who have not yet qualified are sorted out according to their ratings and given a chance to go to nationals. The rules go something like 10%or no less than 3 per each group per so many fencers, and I am sure someone more knowledgeable than myself on the board knows the rules for this by heart (Edew, JEC, Rolls, Artisan, Mo, etc).

As to the Div II/III paths it goes like this: Div II is the top 25% of the events, and Div III is the top 25% that is D rated and under, so you do not have to wade through a bunch of C's to get to fence in Div III.
You can get full details in chapter two of the Athletes Handbook from the USFA website under the Info for members/ USFA Forms section.

Hope that was some help... even if I am leaning in my avatar

[edew]

That is definitely not kosher. Fencers classified as A or B are not allowed to compete in the Division II/III/Vet Summer National Qualifier. Yet, they must be allowed to compete to qualify for the sectional championships.

Better talk to the division officers and tell them that it's not a feasible thing to do, even if there are no B's and A's in the division. (And there's definitely A's and B's in the Mid-Atlantic section.)

[dberke]

This brings up a good question about qualification. I've emailed the USFA about this but have not received a response... perhaps one of the knowledgable folks around here can help.

According to the USFA documents, to qualify for Div II, you can either:
1. Place in the top 25% of the division qualifier
2. Have qualified for Div 1-A
3. Have qualified for Under-19
4. Have qulaified for Under-16
5. Placed in the top 4 at 2003 Div III Nationals

Let's say you have a Div II qualifier with 20 fencers. Of those 20 fencers, 5 of them are already qualified for Div II via one of the routes #2-5 above. Let's now assume that they all finish in the top 5 positions in the Div II qualifier.

Since the top 25% (5 fencers) were already qualified for Div II when the event started, do you essentially ignore them and qualify the next 5 people? Or does the event produce no new Div II qualifications?

In prior years, the USFA has used language like "top 30% of those not otherwise qualified" to determine qualification. Is this implied this time around or do pre-qualified fencers that finish in the top 25% essentially take "slots" away from the other fencers?

If anyone knows what the official rule is on this, please let me know!

Thanks,
Dan

[edew]

Automatics (that is, pre-qualified by some other route) never take up the space on the list of qualified from the event. They do count in determining the 25%, so their presence at the tournament helps everyone else out in increasing the pool of possible qualifiers without possibly taking up those positions. I, too, was surprised by the lack of the phrase, "...who don't already qualify..." which was in the explanations in previous seasons. I asked USFA about that and the above answer was what I got. But then, after a moment's thought, it was clear that that had to be the case.

[mfp]

Fencers classified as A or B are not allowed to compete in the Division II/III/Vet Summer National Qualifier.

Huh? Are you saying Vets classified as A or B aren't allowed to compete in a divisional II/III/Vet qualifier for summer nationals? Or that the divisional Vets qualifier must be held as a separate competition?

[dberke]

Automatics (that is, pre-qualified by some other route) never take up the space on the list of qualified from the event. They do count in determining the 25%, so their presence at the tournament helps everyone else out in increasing the pool of possible qualifiers without possibly taking up those positions. I, too, was surprised by the lack of the phrase, "...who don't already qualify..." which was in the explanations in previous seasons. I asked USFA about that and the above answer was what I got. But then, after a moment's thought, it was clear that that had to be the case.

That's what I was hoping... thanks for the clarification. Since they didn't explicitly put in the "who don't already qualify" phrase, I took that as a possibly intentional omission. After all, by removiing that rule, it would further reduce the number of qualifiers, which does go towards their goal of limiting attendance. That, coupled with the removal of the "second chance" qualification at Sectionals, seemed like a double-whammy... I'm glad to hear they haven't limited it that much.

Thanks,
Dan

[edew]

Huh? Are you saying Vets classified as A or B aren't allowed to compete in a divisional II/III/Vet qualifier for summer nationals? Or that the divisional Vets qualifier must be held as a separate competition?

That is correct. Vets with A's or B's must qualify some other route (sectional championships or national points or whatever else method).

[dekko]

Surprised you haven't approached the tpoic about if you qualify D2 you can not qualify or fence in the D3 events.

Are people that upset at a 300+ person national event?

[Purple Fencer]

Surprised you haven't approached the tpoic about if you qualify D2 you can not qualify or fence in the D3 events.

Are people that upset at a 300+ person national event?

Huh???? it that a recent change? Last time I fenced in a qualifier (for the '01 Nats), SoCal ran a Div II/III combined...if you placed in the top 30% (excluding auto-quals) you werfe in for Div II...if you simply competed in the tourney you qualified for Div III (which is how I got in). In fact, I remember someone qualifying for Div II who only had a D...withint he ratings restrictions for Div III events.

[dberke]

Surprised you haven't approached the tpoic about if you qualify D2 you can not qualify or fence in the D3 events.

Are people that upset at a 300+ person national event?

That's not true - if you are D or under and you place in the top 25% of the Div II qualifier, you qualify for both Div II and Div III. If you are already a C-rated fencer and place in the top 25%, you only qualify for Div II since you're ineligible for Div III.

At least that's what the USFA website says (see point #2):
http://www.usfencing.org/Documents/R...asp?Tourn=Ind3

I believe that if a D-or-under fencer places first in the Div II qualifier and earns a C (assuming it's a C1, C2, or C3 event) then he/she still qualifies for Div III since they were D-or-under at the time they entered the event. They'd then be seeded at the top of the Div III event.

Dan

[dberke]

And, based on what edew said, the way to determine the Div III qualification (assuming a combined Div II/III qualifier) is:

1. Print out the results of the event
2. Count up the number of D-and-under fencers present. Compute 25% of that number, that's how many will qualify for Div III.
3. Cross out all of the C fencers in the results.
4. Cross out the D-and-under fencers that finished in the top 25% of the entire field (because they qualify by making the Div II cut)
5. The top X fencers (computed in step #2) remaining qualify for Div III.

Dan

[edew]

And, based on what edew said, the way to determine the Div III qualification (assuming a combined Div II/III qualifier) is:

1. Print out the results of the event
2. Count up the number of D-and-under fencers present. Compute 25% of that number, that's how many will qualify for Div III.
3. Cross out all of the C fencers in the results.
4. Cross out the D-and-under fencers that finished in the top 25% of the entire field (because they qualify by making the Div II cut)
5. The top X fencers (computed in step #2) remaining qualify for Div III.

Dan

I believe what you write is correct. Those D's and lower who make the top-25% of the competition will qualify for the Div II Nationals, so they are an "automatic" for Div III (according to rule 2 in the qualification path for Div III). Hence, they should not take up a spot for Div III. Those who are Div III eligible and are top 25% of the subset (being those who are Div III eligible) of the whole field are then qualified to Div III, IN ADDITION to those D's and lower who make the top-25% already.

Umm... is that clear?

[dekko]

Read the blue pages of the last magazine:

Just to be clear(er), the Div III qualifiers are:
(see 2nd bullet point) - did not qualify for DivII

Seems pretty clear to me. This is on page 4 of the blue pages in the back of the magazine. Did you guys not bother to read it beacuse "you already know this stuff"?

[dberke]

Read the blue pages of the last magazine:

Just to be clear(er), the Div III qualifiers are:
(see 2nd bullet point) - did not qualify for DivII

Seems pretty clear to me. This is on page 4 of the blue pages in the back of the magazine. Did you guys not bother to read it beacuse "you already know this stuff"?

I read that section in the last magazine and my interpretation of that line was essentially the same as what I listed as step #4 in my earlier post... that those fencers who have already qualified by making it into Div II are not considered when determining the additional qualifiers. I think that section is a guideline for the tournament organizers rather than the rules for who's eligible - elsewhere on that same page it lists those rules (the same info that's on the website.)

Incidentally, it was that exact line which caused a lot of confusion for me - it was the only place in any of the documents on qualification path that suggested that we omit fencers who have already qualified when determining the new qualifiers. Since there wasn't a similar statement for determining the Div II qualifiers, I wasn't sure if the rule applied. But as edew confirmed, it does apply.

I'd love to see the USFA actually publish a clear, step-by-step process for doing the qualification. I was able to boil it down to five steps - even someone with no familiarity with the process can do it using those steps.

Dan

[dekko]

Seems we need some clarification from upon high. Seems to me if you qualify D2 you can not fence in the D3 of the same event. The little white box seems pretty clear on that point. If you qualify D2 you do not qualify D3. Hence the reason it says, Did not qualify Div II.

Can this be more vague? Even if my interpretation is incorrect it seems as though it could be taken a couple of ways.

[mfp]

That is correct. Vets with A's or B's must qualify some other route (sectional championships or national points or whatever else method).

That leads to the strange result that the qualification path for the better Veterans is more difficult and probably more expensive than that for Veteran U classifed fencers. Is that really what is intended? If so, it doesn't make much sense. [Peach -- can you comment? Aren't you on the national Vet committee?]

The Vet U/E/D/Cs need merely to show up at their local Div II/III/Vet division qualifying event to qualify for Vets at Summer Nationals. They can finish DFL and still qualify. However the presumably better A and B classified Vets now have to qualify for their sectionals (for those sections that don't hold open sectionals) and then travel all the way to and fence in their sectionals.

Yes, there are other ways for Vets to qualify, but that's not the point or question. The question is why on earth would or should the path to Summer Nationals be easier for a Vet U than a Vet A?

[edew]

Seems we need some clarification from upon high. Seems to me if you qualify D2 you can not fence in the D3 of the same event. The little white box seems pretty clear on that point. If you qualify D2 you do not qualify D3. Hence the reason it says, Did not qualify Div II.

Can this be more vague? Even if my interpretation is incorrect it seems as though it could be taken a couple of ways.

That would not make sense, as it puts people in the position to not do their best. (An U-fencer who knows he's not going to do well in Div II might consider pulling short when he gets close to the top, so that he'll only qualify to Div III, according to your assumption.)

When I wrote above that "after a moment's thought, I realized that it must be the case..." it was based on realizing that automatics must never take qualifying slots over those who are not automatics because it will encourage people to not fence at their best. The supposed claim above about D's and lower who qualify to Div II CANNOT qualify to Div III will yield the same problem: fencers not wanting to compete at their best.

[ShadowHuntr]

thanks for the help guys. much appreciated

[Peach]

That leads to the strange result that the qualification path for the better Veterans is more difficult and probably more expensive than that for Veteran U classifed fencers. Is that really what is intended? If so, it doesn't make much sense. Peach -- can you comment? Aren't you on the national Vet committee?]

Actually, in practice, it's easy and the question has never come up, because the better veterans who are interested in competing in their age-group championships are pre-qualified anyway--they've shown up for at least one NAC during the year, whether it's a Division I NAC or a Veterans NAC, and that is one of the qualification paths. I admit that a veteran with an A or B who didn't want to compete in NACs during the year and found traveling to sectionals an abhorrent idea might have a tough time qualifying for age group championships, but that hypothetical veteran sounds like one heck of a weird competitor. You have to be fond of competition in order to earn the A or B in the first place, generally speaking.

Anyway, as an adult fencer with an A, I always go to sectionals, because I want to do the IA--aside from team, that's my only other event at Summer Nationals. You see, your question is related to the phenomenon of excellence, which is that having an A or B doesn't give you more options, it gives you different options, and makes it harder to achieve them.

At any rate, I'm hoping they adopt the faster age-out of classifications so that I can get back in the Division II before I'm 57