is progress in fencing lineal?

[botmer]

Well, one advanced fencer told me it's not, that you get better then worse, better, worse, and so on, but then when are you better, when you don't lose as many bouts as you did before?

I started a bit more than one year ago and I feel I'm progressing slowly, based on the number of mistakes I make and the touches I get for making these mistakes.

There is another guy who started months later than I and when we bout he gets to win me sometimes, but he's no better than me, IMO. Well, of course no one can be a master with one year or less, he or I or whoever.

I train 4-5 times per week, this other guy comes about 2 times/week or less, but seems to be about the same level doesn't he, if he gets to win me and some other fencers sometimes.

So I sometimes think, what for do I go daily to train if one may get the same results with less time. It's not that I don't like to go, but I get to do a hell of a lot more exercises (fencing plus physical condition) and get very tired and all and there are others who come much much less and we all seem to be having the same level. For me it's kind of discouraging. It's this feeling you get when you've prepared for something for a long time and some other fellow comes with less preparation and both get the same result.

Besides I hate novice fencers like this guy who boast about how good they are getting when they win a few bouts.

Well anyway, do you think I could train less and keep on progressing at the same rate?

Doesn't it happen to you, that simply some days you lose all your bouts when training, and other days you win many of them, some even with more experienced fencers, why is that

[botmer]

Well there is also this other example, I know 2 fencers who get about the same training, one started 6 years ago, the other one 16 years ago, but the latter hasn't won half competitions than the first. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[Ben[PrFC]]

I can't really comment on the long term effects of training regularly vs intermittently, but it seems to me that in fencing more than anything else I've seen, there are good and bad days.
Of course, in everything you had good days and bad days, but for some reason they seem more pronounced with fencing, with the good being better, and the bad being worse. The sooner you realize that one days performance, outstanding, or horrible, isnt indicative of your fencing ability, the sooner you'll be able to peacefully accept other things like the disparity between how quickly you advance compared to someone else.
It's up to you to decide whether training as much as you do helps all the more, or if it's just excessive. I personally, and I know alot of other people who think this way as well, look at fencing - be it tournaments or practice, as fun. Drills can be difficult sometimes, but I'd rather be drilling than not doing anything fencing related.
The best thing to do is to not look at it as a contest between you and him. More of a challenge to yourself, to be better than you were, rather than better than he is. His attitude is a reflection on him, not your abilities, so dont let it bother you.

Getting back to the original core of your post:
Everyone has bad days, and there's always days when you'll get beaten by someone you dont think you should. It doesnt mean you suck, or he's better, just that he had a better day. As far as the ammount that you train, that's for you to decide. But if you think it's just excessive, experiment with different practicing schedules, different drills, focus on different aspects of your fencing.
Most of all, have fun.

[MHS Fencer]

Fencing is an interesting sport when it comes to training. I don't have nearly enough time to train as i would like to, but i manage to still progress somehow. However, because i'm not able to practice as much i'm not building some of the tools and completeness that other fencers at my club possess, which in the long run is detrimental to me. If you keep going as often as you can you will become more well rounded, instead of being the one-trick pony that those people who you are referring to probably are.

Oh, and as an added bonus, because these other people think they're already so good, and you realize that you have to progress, they'll probably remain at the same level doing the same thing while you progress. Just keep at it and keep working hard and you'll do well.

On another brief note, it's also important to take some down time, 4 or 5 days a week can sometiems seem a bit strenuous - if your starting to be stressed by the fencing cut down a bit - the extra relaxation will help you, but fence as much as you feel like if you want to get better.

Good luck,
-Ian

[Sciurus Rex]

Two truths:

1. Success is not determined by one accomplishment, but by the total perspective of many events over time.

2. You will perform at the level at which you train.

So don't sweat the small stuff, and keep practicing. You'll get there.
... Or you won't.

[shyHeidi]

Hmm... Also... the fact that someone else trains less and does just as well as you doesn't mean you'd do just as well as you are if you trained less. Some people learn much more slowly than others. (Me, for example. )

I've been fencing for only about 10 months, and that's not much, I know, but I get beaten by people who just pick up a foil, swish it around a bit, and then start a bout (well, basically anyway)... Don't let it bother you. If you like fencing, just think that you'll be doing it for a long long time, and regardless of how slowly you feel like you're improving, you'll be pretty good some day.

...also, I've found that (and this probably isn't true for fencers above a novice level, I dunno) the level of aggression you have when you fence is a big part of how well you do. You can parry 'til your arm falls off but if you don't ever riposte or try to attack, it's not going to do you alot of good. ... that's a definite problem I'm having...

Okay, I'm gonna stop complaining about my bad habits now.

[Inquartata]

Well, it's not that you get better, then worse, etc ( unless you have an injury or a long layoff or something ). It's more like you get better quickly, then you plateau ( meanwhile others may still be improving, since not everyone plateaus at the same time, and thus it seems like you're regressing in comparison ). Then you improve again, then plateau. And so forth. And each upward leg gets more difficult, and the gains smaller incrementally. So it's rather like you're ratcheting upward rather than a smooth progression...

As to your nemesis there is also the phenomenon of the person who just "has your number". No doubt you're familiar with this from other activities: A can beat B, B can beat C, but C can beat A. And round and round she goes.

[Zelda]

Has anyone else found that sometimes a week or two off improves their fencing??

[sdcox]

Here's another possibility. Something I've seen a lot is a newish fencer develops some kind of "trick" or "crutch" that allows him to beat everyone at his level and some above it. An example is some one who learns to flick first before anyone else at his level can deal with it. (Not that flicking isn't a great part of fencing; I'm only using it as an example of something that is hard for beginning fencers to handle.) This guy then thinks he's a great fencer, but his game is all about one thing. Soon he reaches a level of fencing where everyone can handle flicks, and he never wins again because he has nothing else to rely on. Usually this guy leaves shortly after.
It doesn't seem like you're in danger of being this guy. I know it's frustrating at times when it seems like you're not making progress, but all fencers go through peaks and valleys. After you've been fencing for a while, you start to recognize the cycle.
Hang in there,
Susan

[neevel]

In addition to the rises and plateaus, you will often also have 'dips' just before the rises, as you begin incorportating new elements into your game and have to figure out how to make them work under fire. Once you start to get that down, the rise comes, reaching the plateau when you've got the new stuff in place and consistent. Then you'll need to upset the equilibrium yet again to incorporate still more new elements, leading to another dip before the new rise.

One other point to consider: if you're being serious about training, then you're not supposed to be aiming to win all your practice bouts-- you're supposed to be working on new things, so the dip occurs mainly in practice rather than at tournaments, or improving the weaker points of your game. Fencers who stick to doing only what they can do well in practice will tend to win their practice bouts against fencers who are deliberately working on something, but won't be gaining anything in the long run.

Novice fencers whose win-loss record seems beyond their level tend to come in two varieties:

1) Flailing bumblers who are impossible to read and set up because they don't know what they're doing themselves. They'll tend to win bouts against more experienced, but still novice, fencers, but will get blown away by intermediate and advanced fencers who know how to hang back and wait for the openings.

2) People who've, on their own, grokked some of the more subtle but vital concepts of distance and/or timing that many instructors don't teach to beginners. Watch these ones as they fence. Do they widen distance on defense and close distance on offense where you stay put? Do they start attacks slowly (so they can read your reaction) and then accelerate with the finish when they're sure they've got you, where you move with constant speed and try to be fast from the get-go? A novice fencer who understands these two points will usually beat another novice who doesn't, even if that second novice has better bladework and a bigger 'library' of blade actions.

-Dave

[mifencer]

I know, we can ask "Maestro" Riddle. I'm sure with his vast knowledge and expertise you'll be fencing at World Cups in no time. What we should do is setup a 1-900-BIG-RIDL number, we all call him and we can learn from a true fencing maestro and that way we can pay him homage and money. We can have his ads between the psychic friends network and the ab-roller.


All ridiculing-Riddle aside. Ask yourself these questions:
1) Are you truly understanding what's going on?
2) Are you getting instruction and if so, is it good?
3) Are you having fun?

If answers to 1 &/or 2 are no then you know what to do. If the answer to 3 is no, then take time off.

Zelda- I found that people who take time off of fencing, fence really well the first day and then they get sore/fatigued quick and then they don't fence well for a long time (a couple of weeks) at their normal level. The most I would recommend to take off is a week, anymore you will be hurting yourself.

[big poppa]

Fencing is a journey that takes a lifetime to enjoy. Don't worry and for God's sake take some time off train two or three times a week but when you do train , train do the drills the footwork and pratice bouts where the aim is practice , not winning, and then fence in touraments as much as possible in the meantime" keep your powder dry and your&^*&*% hard, the world will turn" (Platoon)

[dragonlady7]

no, you don't make linear progress. And your progress in fencing doesn't come solely from how often you fence, how long you've been fencing, or how hard you work.

i know this well.

i started fencing in september of my junior year of college (2000). I started at the same time as a whole group of people.
Let's just say I didn't have much of a knack. I'm naturally somewhat ambidextrous, which makes me... clumsy as hell. I literally can't tell left from right. And so I switched hands a couple times, switched weapons a couple times...
So the others who started with me at the same time could consistently beat me. From Day One, to Month Six; I didn't provide much of a challenge, for all I showed up to every practice without fail.
One of them was particularly obnoxious about it, and I didn't really like fencing him. It was a lesson in motivation for me. After a while of avoiding him (during which I showed up much more than he did, went to a couple of tournaments, and in general really worked hard), I decided I could deal with fencing him again. And... handily beat him.
He raged about how he "should've beat me" and couldn't believe he'd lost so many "stupid touches", and never fenced me again. Soon, he stopped showing up altogether to practice.
I don't weep over the sport of fencing's loss in his departure. Call me cold-hearted.

A year and most of a second year later, I'm still fencing. I'm not doing extremely well. I'm not a great fencer. I can sometimes beat beginners, but sometimes they hand my *** to me on a silver platter with garnish. I still switch weapons around, but I've become right-footed at least and can't switch hands. I could focus more, I could practice a little more, but I mostly just like the social aspects, I like tournaments, I enjoy running around at practice and I like bouting even if I don't win. I take small victories when I can get them, and I may work harder to improve sometime when I have fewer things to distract me and more time to devote. (Hell might freeze over more readily. But i'm always ready for contingencies.)

The moral of the story?

Don't measure your progress against other people. Fencing isn't about winning and losing, though at times it may seem that's all it's about... the stupidest thing you can say is "I should've beat him," and yet I hear this all the time. You are never entitled to beat someone simply because you've been fencing longer/working harder. You only deserve to win if you DO win. I understand "I could've beat him" [except I screwed up/got lazy/ forgot everything i've learned], or "I would've beat him" [if only I had figured out how to stop his successful attacks sooner in the bout]-- those are acceptable. But "I should've beat him" ... why should you have? That implies that you didn't mean to and wish you had.
So don't think that way. It doesn't do anybody any good. The blame/credit for victories is either in your own failure to use your training/intelligence to its fullest, or your opponent's superior use of his own skills. There is no entitlement. The only way you can measure your progress is how you feel about what you're doing. Do you feel stronger? Do you feel like you're in control of your own motions? Those things, you can improve. You have little control over how you improve relative to someone because you can't control them.

[Purple Fencer]

[quote]Originally posted by dragonlady7:
<strong> The only way you can measure your progress is how you feel about what you're doing. Do you feel stronger? Do you feel like you're in control of your own motions? Those things, you can improve. You have little control over how you improve relative to someone because you can't control them.</strong><hr></blockquote>

As an example...there's one guy in SwordPlay who'd been fencing in salle about a year now...he'll probably do the novice foil next season. He's been taking lessons and Al Carter's classes, but for the longest time seemed frustrated tat he couldn;t even land anything.

Last night I'm watching him go against one of Al's mor experienced students who's younger and faster. Roy still lost the bout5-3, but he was landing the point. quite a number of times he attempted to attack into Dan's preparation...some times be landed before Dan's final action & won the point, other times he was a little to slow with it. However, it's an improvement over a few weeks back.

Afterwards I told him the same thing I'd tell myself...take the little personal victories where you get 'em. Improvement is not measured by wins/losses...it's measured by landing the point more, parrying cleaner, better control of distance, even landing closer and closer to the lame when learnign a new action. Winning will come out of that.

[lochinvar]

Just a few things to add to what's already on your plate:

1) "Fencing is not Transitive."
Just because A can beat B and B can beat C doesn't necessarily mean that A can beat C. Quite often, A has a problem with C. It's all very personal and depends on many factors.

2) Some people are just better at some things than other people.
I can practice violin for 16 hours a day 7 days a week; I will never be Pinkus Zuckerman.
I can sing for 16 hours a day 7 days a week; I will never be Luciano Pavorotti.
I can fence and drill 16 hours a day 7 days a week; I will never be Cliff Bayer.
Which doesn't mean I shouldn't try, of course, but I should recognize that talent and natural ability DO exist, and training harder or longer or both may or may not be able to compensate for that.

3) Training can't hurt.
Maybe your trining regimen isn't helping as much as you would wish, but you don't know where you'd be if you weren't training like you are.

4) Experiment.
Try coming less often. If you feel worse about your performance, then step back up to your normal routine. If you don't notice a drop-off in performance or improvement, then cut back and use the extra time for something else you think is fun.

5) Be aware that there is such a thing as the Law of Minimum Effectiveness: Once a beam is strong enough to hold the load, you gain nothing by making it twice as strong.

It may be that your body has a limited capacity to benefit from training within a given time period. Excess training beyond this minimum value is wasted time and effort. Or, to take an example, no matter how many 'resources' you devote to the 'problem', it still takes nine months to finish making a baby. Some things just take as long as they take, and can't be hurried.

6) Don't worry about the jerks. Don't let them define you.
Let's face it--every sport has them. They brag. They mock, they posture, they make fun, they beat you and rub your nose in it. And to top it off, adding insult to injury, they really do fence better than you do.

I-g-n-o-r-e them. They may be better fencers, but they are worse persons.

Good luck, and let us know how you do.

[135711]

it's more like a plaid, or tweed.

[Inquartata]

I dunno, loch. I think if you were really fencing and drilling 16 hours a day 7 days a week you'd be beating Cliff Bayer ( assuming the same quality in bouting partners and lessons, that is ). If you didn't burn out, anyway.

[achilleus]

[quote]Originally posted by Inquartata:
<strong>I dunno, loch. I think if you were really fencing and drilling 16 hours a day 7 days a week you'd be beating Cliff Bayer ( assuming the same quality in bouting partners and lessons, that is ). If you didn't burn out, anyway.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Not neccessarily. Talent and athelticism play a role in it all as well. Why? Look at people like Zaddick Logenbach. Very good fencer, very dedicated. He didn't have to have a job, and spent hsi time training, yet he never won any national championships, and was regularly beaten by several of his contemporaries like Bravin and Bayer. Even after a long hiatus Bravin still beat Logenbach.

Please note this is not meant to slight anyone's fencing ability, all the fencer's included are all great fencer's with impressive resume's, I'm just using them to make a point. Training is important, but some people have a natural talent for the sport that makes them better than the rest.

[Inquartata]

[quote]Originally posted by achilleus:
<strong>


Talent and athelticism play a role in it all as well. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, sure. But do they play the primary role? Taken to the extreme that would mean that as long as you have the right natural endowments you wouldn't even need lessons or practice to be world champion. To some extent talent and athleticism compensate for laziness or poor technique; but to some extent grim determination and grueling training will compensate for a mediocre talent.

This is something of a sore point to me at the moment, actually. We have a young fellow at our club with amazing athletic endowments who with a modicum of effort could be really, really good. But his attitude seems to be a shrug and a "whatever". Shows up maybe one practice a month, comes late and leaves early, and then only after some serious nagging. Then he gets frustrated that he doesn't do better in competitions. If only I could trade him half of his talent for half of my love of the sport! I hate to see all that potential frittering itself away from laziness...

[botmer]

Scirius Rex said:
[quote] 2. You will perform at the level at which you train. <hr></blockquote>

I agree but that's what I wonder, I don't see many fencers performing at the level at which they train, and I think I should be performing better. Well indeed, there are people with more talent for fencing.

ShyHeidi said:
[quote] You can parry 'til your arm falls off but if you don't ever riposte or try to attack, it's not going to do you alot of good. ... that's a definite problem I'm having...
<hr></blockquote>
Yeah I have the same problem when I bout. When in class I can riposte all right but when bouting either I forget to riposte or my point never lands where it should...

mifencer said:
[quote] All ridiculing-Riddle aside. Ask yourself these questions:
1) Are you truly understanding what's going on?
2) Are you getting instruction and if so, is it good?
3) Are you having fun?
<hr></blockquote>
Sometimes when watching a bout it's simply uncomprehensible what they do or why. When they put me to judge a bout I often have to ask, for heaven's sake, what was that?! Advanced fencers seem to follow it all so easily. Yes I think my instruction is good. But it's pathetic, I just have fun SOMETIMES.
--
I'll consider all of your advices about training less, I won't go when I don't feel like.
I like fencing, I want to be good, but sometimes I just don't feel like training. Doesn't it happen to you?? Doesn't seem to happen to many fencers at my club and I feel weird.

There is another thing about improvement, what Purple Fencer said in the example. It happens that you improve your point control and finally get to land the touches properly. But then a few days/weeks later you again miss them all, start doing mistakes you had corrected. What went wrong?

lochinvar said:
[quote] I can fence and drill 16 hours a day 7 days a week; I will never be Cliff Bayer.
<hr></blockquote>
if I fenced all that time and I didn't get to beat at least a few great fencers, I'd be mortally frustrated.

[quote] ) Be aware that there is such a thing as the Law of Minimum Effectiveness: Once a beam is strong enough to hold the load, you gain nothing by making it twice as strong.
<hr></blockquote>
I don't get this one.


zelda said:
[quote] Has anyone else found that sometimes a week or two off improves their fencing?? <hr></blockquote>
perhaps it happens to advanced fencers...?