You make the Call #3

[Craig]

No video, just a theoretical exercise.

In foil:
Fencer Q and Fencer V both initiate an advance-lunge at the same time. Neither fencer extends during the advance and neither fencer extends before the initiation of their lunge.

After the initiation of the lunge, but before the front foot hits the ground, Fencer V extends his weapon arm.

Both fencers land valid.

What's the call?

[Namir]

Originally posted by Craig
No video, just a theoretical exercise.

In foil:
Fencer Q and Fencer V both initiate an advance-lunge at the same time. Neither fencer extends during the advance and neither fencer extends before the initiation of their lunge.

After the initiation of the lunge, but before the front foot hits the ground, Fencer V extends his weapon arm.

Both fencers land valid.

What's the call?

Are we to assume the fencer Q extends after his foot hits the ground?

[frenzl]

i say fenver V gets the point because they extended, but i'm not positive.

[Craig]

Originally posted by Namir
Are we to assume the fencer Q extends after his foot hits the ground?

Both are executing an advance lunge with bent arm. One extends during the lunge, the other does not. Both hit valid.

[Strytllr]

And thanks to Achilleus for illuminating this exact point to me in an erstwhile earlier debate...

[C.J.]

In theory, fencer V, who extended the arm before landing his front foot, gets the touch.

But in reality, I think it depends on the alignment of the stars, the astrological signs of the fencers, the Fung Shui of the strip, and if, in fact, the director had a fight with his wife the night before the bout.

[Kemijaba]

I would say Attack-Counter Attack - Point for Fencer V as I would say his extension gives him priority, and Fencer Q's extension is just a reaction.

[AWKopel]

Technically I would agree with you, but isn't there a much more subjective element going on? Counting this in, I would say that they both initiated an intended attack at the same time and finish at the same time, so I would call it simul, though I'm probably wrong here

[counterattack]

I believe the proper call is "on guard".

"The simple attack, direct or indirect (cf. t.8), is correctly executed when the extending of the arm, the point threatening the valid target, precedes the initiation of the lunge or the flèche."

"The Referee must replace the competitors on guard each time that there is a double touch and he is unable to judge clearly on
which side the fault lies."

Neither fencer made a proper attack, so neither receives right of way, so no touch.

[sabreur]

Craig,

You need another option in the poll:

"Who cares, in sabre it would be touch V, and I don't care about those silly pointy weapons anyway."



MR

[Peach]

Originally posted by sabreur
Craig,

You need another option in the poll:

"Who cares, in sabre it would be touch V, and I don't care about those silly pointy weapons anyway."



MR

Took the words right out of my mouth. Clear sabre touch, what's the problem?

[DanInMI]

Craig,
Does fencer Q not extend at all? (he could get so close that he hits with his arm bent.)
Or does he extend and hit after his foot comes down?
Is one fencer faster than the other? (it is possible that fencer Q does his advance, lunge, and extension before fencer V finishes his advance.)

Here is what I think, without going to the rulebook.
Upon completion of the first advance neither has RoW, because neither began extending before the advance was completed.

After that RoW goes to whichever began extending first.
Fencer V doesn't have RoW at the throught his lunge due to the fact that his extending of his arm, the point threatening the valid target, did not precede the initiation of the lunge.

<b>"The simple attack, direct or indirect (cf. t.8), is correctly executed when the extending of the arm, the point threatening the valid target, precedes the initiation of the lunge or the flèche."</b>


So really two fencers got within thrusting difference of each other before establishing RoW. Then they both thrust. Whoever thrust first attained RoW.

[DanInMI]

<b>The attack with a step-forward-lunge or a step-forward-flèche is correctly executed when the extending of the arm precedes the end of
the step forward and the initiation of the lunge or the flèche.</b>

This rule eliminates the first advance from having ROW.

[Craig]

Originally posted by DanInMI
Craig,
Does fencer Q not extend at all? (he could get so close that he hits with his arm bent.)
Or does he extend and hit after his foot comes down?
Is one fencer faster than the other? (it is possible that fencer Q does his advance, lunge, and extension before fencer V finishes his advance.)

Here is what I think, without going to the rulebook.
Upon completion of the first advance neither has RoW, because neither began extending before the advance was completed.

After that RoW goes to whichever began extending first.
Fencer V doesn't have RoW at the throught his lunge due to the fact that his extending of his arm, the point threatening the valid target, did not precede the initiation of the lunge.

<b>"The simple attack, direct or indirect (cf. t.8), is correctly executed when the extending of the arm, the point threatening the valid target, precedes the initiation of the lunge or the flèche."</b>


So really two fencers got within thrusting difference of each other before establishing RoW. Then they both thrust. Whoever thrust first attained RoW.

Both have exact same foot speed. Fencer V extends after the lunge begins but before the lunge ends. Fencer Q does not extend. Both hit valid.

[DanInMI]

Originally posted by Craig
Both have exact same foot speed. Fencer V extends after the lunge begins but before the lunge ends. Fencer Q does not extend. Both hit valid.

Well, then fencer V must have began his extension first. His touch.

(although I am not sure how fencer q got close enough to touch without extending, but I am sure that is possible)

[Grey]

Perhaps he might have longer hands?

[esskreemr]

Originally posted by DanInMI
<b>The attack with a step-forward-lunge or a step-forward-flèche is correctly executed when the extending of the arm precedes the end of
the step forward and the initiation of the lunge or the flèche.</b>

This rule eliminates the first advance from having ROW.

Actually, the first advance is included in the ROW as long as the arm extension occurs before the end of the step forward and the start of the lunge or fleche.

Sooo, if we break the step forward down into the classic 1-2 teaching tempo:
+Director calls fence
+Fencers A and B both advance:
1 (front foot moves forward, back foot <tab>still planted), front heel lands
Fencer A extends arm
2 Back heel lands
+Fencers A and B lunge and hit valid

By the rules Fencer A should get the point.

Or this one:
+Director calls fence
+Fencer A advances:
+Fencer B lunges and hits valid
+Fencer A extends arm
+Fencers A lunges hits valid

By the rules, Fencer A should still get the point,by my interpretation (often wrong).

[DanInMI]

Originally posted by esskreemr
Actually, the first advance is included in the ROW as long as the arm extension occurs before the end of the step forward and the start of the lunge or fleche.

Right, but in this example Craig says that the extension does not come until after the lunge has already begun. So the advance is not included in RoW.

[Craig]

Originally posted by DanInMI
Right, but in this example Craig says that the extension does not come until after the lunge has already begun. So the advance is not included in RoW.

Correct. That was specified in the original post.

[GGK]

Originally posted by Craig
Both have exact same foot speed. Fencer V extends after the lunge begins but before the lunge ends. Fencer Q does not extend. Both hit valid.

Definitely V's touché. But just to be sure V should probably yell and pump his fist up and down a few times.