Epee Directing

[telkanuru]

At lower levels (small tourneys) it is really quite terrible. Is this just me, or am I just attending the wrong events? I've noticed a problem with epee directors in HS competitions, but they also manifest themselves at supposedly well-run events, and I'm not talking about self-directing here. It seems that they pull a random dude from wherever say "It's easy, just watch the lights", and set him/her lose. I know I have lost at least 2 out of 20 HS bouts this year because of bad, bad directing. WHY?!?!?! Or is it me

[thyme_daniels]

yeah, the directing at small tournaments, etc, can blow, but you just have to get used to it. i'm sorry you lost those. next time, recognize that the directors are incompetent fools, and try and make your actions ridiculously clear. it's a good exercise.

[telkanuru]

No, no, this is more like "I don't know what the rules are when one fencer fleches past the other and/or goes off the side of the strip" incompetence. So much fury...

[counterattack]

Directing, since it isn't a desirable duty to many people, will always be at something close the lowest acceptable level in local tourneys. Though you rail against epee directing, it is by far the easiest and the least abused in general. The average point in epee has no need for a director. The average point in foil needs a director pretty badly. I think sabre needs it slightly less on average, but there is no way you could make it through a bout without one.

But, having said that, when the director does need to get involved, epee directors are probably the least likely to come to the right conclusions. I have given up on hoping for a timely halt on corps a corps. Forget the rule regarding fencers needing to be able to wield their weapon. Don't count on getting the correct call on a touch scored by a fencer who is going/has gone off the strip. Don't hope for proper distance between fencers after a halt (unless you are willing to nag). If your style leads to many of these situations, you are going to get hosed. Even at Div I NACs. Change your style.

[thyme_daniels]

don't fleche if the director doesnt see it. if you have to, step off while they are fleching at you. (i know i'm going to get yelled at for that) OR react to their fleche and hit them.

[jeff]

The problem with epee directing (from the director's perspective) is you can zone out and lose concentration because you don't have to make ROW decisions. Long stretches of boredom (if the fencing is weak) punctuated by adrenaline. Somebody is at the boundary of the strip, or *maybe* hit the machine or floor (grounded strip? Hah!), or a hit just before/during/after a corps-a-corps. Then you really have to have had your wits about you!

[Peach]

I turned down a request to referee epee last weekend. I can't do it. I can focus intensely on sabre, but epee requires too much attention over a longer period, and selective attention at that. I'd be staring at something else entirely when the floor touch happened or one of the fencers fleched.

[MyraTrue]

You bring up a good point. Our club is currently running "epee director" training sesions as a way to eliminate self-directing at our next team event. The rules in epee are fairly straight forward, though some are "director's discression". Training up good directors should not be that hard, it hasn't been for us.

And anyway, I'm one of the two fencers used in the demonstration. Its great- I get to break EVERY RULE IN THE BOOK! I figure, I get my yearly dose of "yellow card!" "red card!" and "black card!" and then I am happy again.

But it does seem to be working out well. And I always did hate self-directing. This is much nicer.

[Gav]

I was chatting to an FIE ref' a wee bit back. He was commenting on how low-level Foil, Epee and Sabre are poorly presided.

He was saying that high level Epee could be extremely difficult because it was 3 dimensional, that is the fencers utilised the full dimensions of the piste and was very dynamic. It was this that made it hard to ref'. You always had to run around so that you could ensure that you could see all of the action extremely clearly else you started to get into trouble - additionally because, "Epeeists KNOW the rules, it is their only recourse when a hit goes against them." Foil and Sabre, due to the conventions present a different challenge.

The point I am making is that people often underestimate Epee in terms of difficulty. If you find yourself in a pool with poor Epeeists your standard of reffing will be poor - you should probably do as much as reffing as possible when you are not on the piste if you are unhappy with those around you. I find it helpful to ask politely, but firmly, to anyone who I think is this imcompetent in the pools to get someone else to ref'.

I don't have to do it often mind.

[Victor]

To avoid such frustrations, I make sure all my touches are one-lighters. (shrug) And if the guy never scores on a fleche, the ref doesn't really have any question to answer, eh?

[pkt]

Originally posted by Gav
I was chatting to an FIE ref' a wee bit back. He was commenting on how low-level Foil, Epee and Sabre are poorly presided.

He was saying that high level Epee could be extremely difficult because it was 3 dimensional, that is the fencers utilised the full dimensions of the piste and was very dynamic. It was this that made it hard to ref'. ...

As we discussed on a diff't thread on the same topic, epee has a very high degree of difficulty second only to modern day foil.

The FIE ref Gav talked to has it spot on and Gav did not, IMHO, explain it correctly.

By 3-dimensional the FIE ref did not mean that the full dimension of the piste as in length and breadth which high-level foilists and sabreurs use amply. By 3-dimensional i think he meant that the epee target is from head to toe as well as the length and breadth of the piste.

cf. foil or sabre, a ref does not have to pay as much attention to the lower half of the fencers except for the passe avants and the out of bounds.

As the fotos I've posted prove, most sabreur refs tend not to see the lower half of the fencers, hence they don't see the passe' avants. PAs are relatively less important and infrequent occurances. They only see the out of bounds because it's so much more obvious than the PAs.

Foil refs jsut have to concentrate on deciphering the RoWs and the out of bounds... but i guess the fact that one of the italian team foilist got called to pull up his sock a few times proved that the ref did notice his legs...

OTOH, in epee, the ref has to watch out for the hits that might have landed in a c-a-c on the person who's light came on... If they're fencing on the edge of the piste, with the point down, the ref has to watch out for the "hit to the piste first then attack" hits...

Reffing epee can best be summed up as "long stretches of staring into nothingness as the fencers jump and play out their distance game and then instances of panic as all hell breaks lose." which lead to:
Did I blink? Did I actually see that hit on the toe or was that on that piece of tape holding down the piste... etc.

That said, epee is still less difficult than having to figure out the bent arm attacks... Look at the DVD of the 2003 MF Final and you'll see what I mean...

PK

[westcoastsabre]

Does anyone else find it funny that you keep talking about bad epee directing relating to Corps a corps when, as I recall, Corps a Corps doesn't exist as a convention in epee?

[pkt]

westcoastsabre,

what do you mean by "Corps a Corps doesn't exist as a convention in epee"?

What does "convention" mean to you?

c-a-c is very much a big part of epee fencing hence the different treatment of c-a-c in epee cf foil and sabre.

PK