02-10-2004, 09:12 PM
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#1 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Vancouver, BC, the WET coast of Canada
Posts: 1,971
| Sabre Flunge Fotos
I'll have to beg for Craig's indulgence for infringing on FP's copyright for posting 5 fotos of Covaliu's flunge -
Fair use!!!!
It's for educational purpose!!!! http://www.fencing101.com/Photo_Gall...er&id=DSCN1777
fotos 175-179
since
I want to show how
1. Covaliu did his flunge;
2. his flunge has a passe avant element in it. [...so did the German Herm, who fenced J Rogers, in the 1/4 finals. This bout is not on the FP-DVD. I can post fotos of this flunge too. It's taken from the front, and I won't infringe on FP's copyright.]
3. not only did Covaliu, nor Herm, NOT get a yellow card for the passe' avant, Covaliu got the point for his riposte in spite of the fact that Lukashenko's remise landed well ahead, but did not have the RoW.
4. others asked me to post the fotos. I apologise for the lack of quality since I'm not up on the video capture technology, so I just took fotos of the TV screen.
The riposte brought the score to 6-6.
Buy the DVD to see for yourself.
PK | 
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02-11-2004, 02:32 AM
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#2 | | Immortal
Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Heidelberg, GE
Posts: 5,406
| I'm not sure you can say that what Covaliu does has "a passe avant" aspect to it. He crosses his feet very briefly in the air, but recovers the front foot forward and lands on it--he certainly does not do a classic cross-over fleche.
I taped the MS finals off Eurosport, and in another flunge, Covaliu clearly brings the back foot behind the heel of the front foot--this is a nice little fiddle that prevents a cross over.
MR
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02-11-2004, 02:55 AM
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#3 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Brisbane - Australia
Posts: 348
| he crossed his legs.... why he didn't get carded is beyond me. far as i know, the only way to cross legs in sabre is if you are retreating. nice pics tho | |
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02-11-2004, 05:01 AM
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#4 | | Member
Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Mississippi
Posts: 53
| Cool pics, I only wish I could master the flunge, I always end up crossing over, just always have too much forward momentum
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02-11-2004, 05:18 AM
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#5 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: May 2000 Location: The valley of the -hot- sun, NorCal
Posts: 3,184
| He may not have crossed his legs. Under this angle it appears he did, but from the directors point of view it is possible he didn't.
The rule clearly says that you are not allowed to bring your back foot in front of your front foot, unless you are retreating. So having your feet at the same level would be acceptable. Also, I think if you cross your legs after the touch, it is not considered an offense. If Covaliu crossed his legs it was clearly after he touched.
__________________ - Epee is the Louis Vuitton bag of fencing: only the best can get it, and the rest of the masses must content themselves with cheap knockoffs (sabre, foil)
- To not recognize the power of the French grip is to be in denial
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02-11-2004, 06:27 AM
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#6 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Brisbane - Australia
Posts: 348
| yea it is true that it is difficult to not cross your legs but someone told me that if you hopped on your front leg and slowly remove your momentum. Although..... can someone tell me that if you dont land the accutal flunge eg: make a touch in mid air and then fall over afterwards, does the touch still count? or does it not because the falling over and the touch was teh same action... | |
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02-11-2004, 09:06 AM
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#7 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Amherst, MA and Franklin, MA
Posts: 2,442
| i think you would still get the yellow if it was right after the flunge.
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-Kevin
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02-11-2004, 11:57 AM
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#8 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 256
| Well, I think the point should go to the remise because it becomes an attack of preparation with the riposte being too slow. | |
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02-11-2004, 12:14 PM
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#9 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: North attleboro, MA
Posts: 1,817
| Buy the DVD and you will see that his riposte is by NO means what could ever be described as "slow".
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02-11-2004, 12:27 PM
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#10 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 256
| If thats the case, the remise is faster than his riposte isn't it? | |
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02-11-2004, 12:30 PM
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#11 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The More Civilized South
Posts: 1,289
| Quote: |
If thats the case, the remise is faster than his riposte isn't it?
| Doesn't matter as long as the riposte is "immediate".
Boils down to whether, by fast, you mean "speedy" or "immediate".
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02-11-2004, 04:12 PM
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#12 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Boston, Massachusetts
Posts: 134
| Might like this shot of him then: 
I took it at the 2002 World Cup Sabre in Peabody, MA. Anybody guess what Covaliu was doing just prior to being scored upon ;-).
Evan | |
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02-11-2004, 07:44 PM
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#13 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: May 2000 Location: The valley of the -hot- sun, NorCal
Posts: 3,184
| Trying to catch a glance of the hot babe across the hall? 
__________________ - Epee is the Louis Vuitton bag of fencing: only the best can get it, and the rest of the masses must content themselves with cheap knockoffs (sabre, foil)
- To not recognize the power of the French grip is to be in denial
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02-11-2004, 08:39 PM
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#14 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: from russia, in usa now
Posts: 210
| hey thanks PKT I will definately be buying the video pretty soon
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02-11-2004, 08:59 PM
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#15 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: New England/DC
Posts: 610
| Quote: Originally posted by U.M.Amherst.Sabre95
Might like this shot of him then:
I took it at the 2002 World Cup Sabre in Peabody, MA. Anybody guess what Covaliu was doing just prior to being scored upon ;-).
Evan |
Covaliu's classic counterattack and pull distance. it's beautiful. | |
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02-11-2004, 10:12 PM
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#16 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Boston, Massachusetts
Posts: 134
| Actually... :-)
1. Covaliu coming up short.
2. Looking to his right to check the scoring box.
3. No doubt wearing an incredulous expression beneath his mask in seeing no scoring light, proceeds to get creamed.
No kidding, even Olympic Gold Medalists get caught "watching the box."
-Evan | |
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02-11-2004, 11:46 PM
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#17 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 4,497
| Quote: Originally posted by U.M.Amherst.Sabre95
Actually... :-)
1. Covaliu coming up short.
2. Looking to his right to check the scoring box.
3. No doubt wearing an incredulous expression beneath his mask in seeing no scoring light, proceeds to get creamed.
No kidding, even Olympic Gold Medalists get caught "watching the box."
-Evan | Now I don't feel so bad/alone  | |
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02-12-2004, 02:13 AM
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#18 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Vancouver, BC, the WET coast of Canada
Posts: 1,971
| Quote: Originally posted by deadly lefty
hey thanks PKT I will definately be buying the video pretty soon | Craig,
If deadly lefty buys his DVD, do I get a commission?
PK | |
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02-12-2004, 02:14 AM
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#19 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Vancouver, BC, the WET coast of Canada
Posts: 1,971
| Quote: Originally posted by U.M.Amherst.Sabre95
Actually... :-)
1. Covaliu coming up short.
2. Looking to his right to check the scoring box.
3. No doubt wearing an incredulous expression beneath his mask in seeing no scoring light, proceeds to get creamed.
No kidding, even Olympic Gold Medalists get caught "watching the box."
-Evan | Evan,
U have no imagination, like veeco's...
PK | |
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02-12-2004, 03:11 AM
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#20 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Vancouver, BC, the WET coast of Canada
Posts: 1,971
| Quote: Originally posted by veeco
He may not have crossed his legs. Under this angle it appears he did, but from the directors point of view it is possible he didn't.
The rule clearly says that you are not allowed to bring your back foot in front of your front foot, unless you are retreating. So having your feet at the same level would be acceptable. Also, I think if you cross your legs after the touch, it is not considered an offense. If Covaliu crossed his legs it was clearly after he touched. | veeco,
Covaliu was not the only one who got away with the passe avant. In fact, as i wrote before, Covaliu got away in the semi as well as in the finals. So did Herm in the 1/4 finals, as I wrote.
The matter is not the angle.
The matter is that the ref is concentrating mainly on the arms, as a result the footwork are usu not seen.
In the fotos I posted, you'll see that his left/back foot actually touched down...I mention this because before I saw this particular flunge in detail, I was of the impression that as long as one does the passe avant in the air, it's OK.
Therefore, the conclusion is this:
In foil the refs screw up on the RoW with the flicks.
So now in sabre, the FIE A refs are not calling the passe avants. We have video evidence...
Just like Mike Marx informed me that no FIE ref enforces the max. blade curvature rules... and
at another instance I was informed that if a ref keeps asking the epeeists to move to the centre of the psite he would not get too many assignments. As a result of that reluctance, the new rule of one foot off the piste and you lose a metre was necessary.
Should I post the Herm flunge too? The video was taken from the front about even with his opp't.
PK
Last edited by pkt; 02-12-2004 at 03:14 AM.
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