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esskreemr · 02-10-2004, 05:09 PM

The rules are pretty clear bout corp a corp in foil (i.e. even light contact is forbidden). As a competitor, it has been my experience that light contact is often ignored unless it is repetitive and disruptive to the bout. This is not the point I'm discussing right now.

At club, our refs have no problem "carding" for corp a corps (usually a tongue-in-cheek yellow card and chuckles all around).

So, let's see if I can phrase this correctly. If a card is given, it has been my experience that the fencer who starts forward first is assumed to have caused the corp a corp. For instance, Fencer A fleches. Fencer B counterattacks while moving into Fencer A's forward progress (to the side to avoid contact). They slam into each other. Who's technically at fault?

Is it Fencer A who initiated the movement and failed to stop, or is Fencer B, who actually caused the contact by moving into Fencer A.

***Craig*** · 02-10-2004, 05:18 PM

It's up to the referee. I've seen refs card both fencers at the same time for it. (At a NAC level event.)

Strytllr · 02-10-2004, 05:48 PM

*nod* that's true. My old instructor used to tell us to intentionally NOT move if someone was charging or fleching toward us so that they would get the yellow card. hehe. dirty tricky guy...

veeco · 02-10-2004, 06:51 PM

Think about it as you would think about calling a foul in basketball. In basketball, the defensive player cannot move forward to defend, and if contact occurs it is a foul, on the defensive player. If the defensive player doesn't move, and there is contact, it's an offensive foul.

If both fencers are moving towards each other, it's card for both. If one is moving forward and the other isn't it's a card for the one that moves forward.

Corazo · 02-10-2004, 09:55 PM

I think a lot of the calls concerning body contact are completely up to the director. I've been called for body contact when all I did was make a simple lunge and the other fencer moved into me. I've also seen calls where the defender gets the card. It really depends on who the referee feels is causing the body contact, not who's attacking or defending.

veeco · 02-11-2004, 05:34 AM

Ultimately yes, it is up to the director. But this is how they should call it.

downunder · 02-11-2004, 05:36 AM

veeco is quite correct here....

its a judgement call on who causes the contact... if you can't make up your mind then card both fencers

The0ne · 02-11-2004, 08:26 AM

Yeah, a director isn't going to be able to determine which person STARTED moving first in the corp a corp, but if someone runs into you while you are standing still, out comes the card!

oiuyt · 02-11-2004, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The0ne
Yeah, a director isn't going to be able to determine which person STARTED moving first in the corp a corp, but if someone runs into you while you are standing still, out comes the card!

We like to pretend we can tell who's HAND started moving first but somehow can't tell who started their BODY first?!?!?!?!? Uhm....

As mentioned previously, the card should go to the fencer who causes the contact. There's sort of a default assumption that this is the aggressor, but if fencer A fleches and fencer B squares his/her shoulder into the otherwise non-contact causing path that A has chosen then B deserves the card. A will nearly always receive this card, but B deserved it. If both fencers cause the fault both should be penalized. As previously noted corps a corps cards are frequently not actually awarded if the contact is light and incidental or if both fencers cause it (although this should result in both receiving cards, many referees figure it's still an equitable situation and not worthy therefore of official sancture).

-B :)

Grey · 02-11-2004, 12:22 PM

I once had a fencer who was a frequent counter attacker. I did a full lunge towards him and he tried an inquartata but instead of moving to the side, he stepped forward. Nevertheless, his feet was promptly squashed by my lunge... More over the referee awarded him a yellow card when he did another counter attack during my lunge, basically jumping backwards (I do not know the term for that move but it is simply quickly shifting your front leg to the position of the back leg while the back leg sort of kicks off in the air, hopefully not above knee or thigh level)

All in all, a good call for me =)

The0ne · 02-11-2004, 12:39 PM

Brad,

As you said, the card is given to who causes the contact, not who starts moving first, plus a director shouldn't be watching who moves their body first, it's the hand that we're supposed to be watching, as you pointed out!

CarlKnoch · 02-11-2004, 12:48 PM

You know, I think that there aren't enough corps a corps cards given. The rules don't say anything about how hard the body contact has to be, and so ANY contact should be called. When it's not called that way, then fencers get upset when it's called against them for one CAC and not another. They get confused as to what the call is for.

Take me for instance. Over the weekend I fenced a low level local tourney and I was called for CAC for a medium kind of bump that had been totally ignored before in competition. I come forward hard and the other guy does too, so we are both at fault, and I got the card as the referee saw that it was my fault. I can accept his word on it, but what about all the other bumps during that match? (There were several smaller bumps that didn't get called) When that starts happening, it's not fair to the fencers as they are being trained by the referees that some bumps are alright, while others are not.

So referees out there.... CALL THEM ALL NO MATTER HOW SLIGHT! It will help the fencers to be cleaner, and it will abide by the rules.

As for who is at fault, if a flecher is going to the side and the other fencer steps in front of that progress, it's the second guy's fault. If a fencer comes forward hard and the other counters hard and they bash, it's both who are at fault. Give the cards!

The0ne · 02-11-2004, 12:52 PM

incidental contact should not be called in my opinion. . . It just hinders the fencing, and disrupts the bout.

CvilleFencer · 02-11-2004, 02:46 PM

I tend to be and all or nothing kind of guy. I tend to draw a lot of cards as I am a very big guy and I move pretty aggressively around the strip, but another person has to pretty much knock me down or draw blood to get a card called against them. I have even had judges tell me things like "If you were not such a big guy" or "If I did not know you were an epee fencer" then person X would have drawn a card or two. I say that judges should either completely ignore incidental contact (It is after all a martial art) or they should call everything. I am really not a fan of the sometimes approach!

Tireur · 02-11-2004, 03:04 PM

Great, here's another one. I'm fencing foil, again with two Olympic guys in my pool. The director is one of the top officials in the country, I won't name names.

I fleche against an OG (Olympic Guy) and brush against as I pass. I get called on it. I do it again and a point goes away.

Same pool, one OG fleches against the other, knocks him down, no call. I ask the official why he didn't call that one and he says, "I didn't see it."

I'm with CvilleFencer, call it all or change the rule.

D'Artagnan1673 · 02-11-2004, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grey
I once had a fencer who was a frequent counter attacker. I did a full lunge towards him and he tried an inquartata but instead of moving to the side, he stepped forward. Nevertheless, his feet was promptly squashed by my lunge... More over the referee awarded him a yellow card when he did another counter attack during my lunge, basically jumping backwards (I do not know the term for that move but it is simply quickly shifting your front leg to the position of the back leg while the back leg sort of kicks off in the air, hopefully not above knee or thigh level)

All in all, a good call for me =)

Grey, I am lost as a goose as to why the guy got a card for the second action. Did he make body contact?

DanInMI · 02-11-2004, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tireur
Great, here's another one. I'm fencing foil, again with two Olympic guys in my pool. The director is one of the top officials in the country, I won't name names.

I fleche against an OG (Olympic Guy) and brush against as I pass. I get called on it. I do it again and a point goes away.

Same pool, one OG fleches against the other, knocks him down, no call. I ask the official why he didn't call that one and he says, "I didn't see it."

I'm with CvilleFencer, call it all or change the rule.

LoL
How about this one.
Similar thing happened to my son this weekend.
The director awards a touch on the corps a corps to the guy fleching.

My son looks up and say something like "ummmm....corps a corps?"
and the director says (I SWEAR I am not making this up) "I WASN'T PAYING ATTENTION."

Tireur · 02-11-2004, 03:21 PM

Quote:

the director says (I SWEAR I am not making this up) "I WASN'T PAYING ATTENTION."

I've seen this more than a few times. Granted usually at local tournaments And, usually when an epee fencer is directing foil.

That is a bad combination. Everyone knows epee directors don't apy attention anyway. They don't have to.

DanInMI · 02-11-2004, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tireur
I've seen this more than a few times. Granted usually at local tournaments And, usually when an epee fencer is directing foil.

That is a bad combination. Everyone knows epee directors don't apy attention anyway. They don't have to.

It gets better....the guy directing was an A rated fencer COMPETING IN THE TOURNAMENT (open tourney with over 50 fencers) , and his next victim was whoever won that bout.

dreadfoily · 02-11-2004, 06:44 PM

Veeco, I like the comparison between fencing and basketball. I have always been struck by the amount of body contact in the non-contact sport of basketball.

In fencing, there is bound to be some contact at some point. It reminds me of boxing in a way, when two boxers 'rest' they very often bump into each other briefly. I don't think it should detract from the bout unless it's excessively done during a bout and causes the other fencer to lose too much in the way of focus or balance.