Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

***Craig*** · 02-10-2004, 11:33 AM

Take a break from your posting and spend a good 10 to 20 minutes reading the latest piece from Walter Flaschka.

Walter systematically analyzes what the proposed foil changes will mean to the future development of foil fencing. He provides excellent commentary and also suggestions on who to be watching as the "bleeding edge" develops in advance of the switchover to the new rules.

After you read, feel free to comment here: Agree, Disagree, or have theories of your own.

Craig

Tireur · 02-10-2004, 12:02 PM

Sounds like the prodigal foil coming home. I hope so.

Darkside · 02-10-2004, 02:16 PM

Need some help - I have been out of fencing for roughly 3.5 years and I enjoyed success in all 3 weapons as well as running a salle prior to my unplanned vacation. I had originally trained in foil though. My question is in all this time, and with time spent at national and international events and camps, I have never heard of a Mangiarotti Tip. Is it new equipment? or is Mangiarotti just being used as an adjective to describe something - either way I don't know what it is.........

DHCJr · 02-10-2004, 02:30 PM

It has been a proposed new tip requirement for a couple of years. It has not been instituted at this time. If it is every implemented it will make obsolete all current Foil tips, much as the current tip made obsolete the Pineapple tip.

The biggest change is a 2cm of travel. Maybe they will finally get rid of M.11.4. This will be much like the Epee travel, the tip must travel at least 2cm before the break in the circuit to signify a touch.

D'Artagnan1673 · 02-10-2004, 02:36 PM

I assume this article is in the latest US Fencing magazine, no?

Darkside · 02-10-2004, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DHCJr
It has been a proposed new tip requirement for a couple of years. It has not been instituted at this time. If it is every implemented it will make obsolete all current Foil tips, much as the current tip made obsolete the Pineapple tip.

The biggest change is a 2cm of travel. Maybe they will finally get rid of M.11.4. This will be much like the Epee travel, the tip must travel at least 2cm before the break in the circuit to signify a touch.

So will travel now be tested in foil?

GGK · 02-10-2004, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DHCJr
The biggest change is a 2cm of travel.

Err 2mm? (I hope)

DHCJr · 02-10-2004, 02:59 PM

I said IF. The tip has not been approved, it has only been proposed and tested. The rule I was talking about M.11.4. and the 1mm travel is an obsolete rule, that has never been taken out of the rule book. It should have been removed in 1964. It was a rule designed for relay boxes.

There was talk of it in various threads. It has not been in the USFA magazine, because it hasn't even been through the FIE process. Don't hold your breath for this tip to be required.

Darkside · 02-10-2004, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DHCJr
I said IF. The tip has not been approved, it has only been proposed and tested. The rule I was talking about M.11.4. and the 1mm travel is an obsolete rule, that has never been taken out of the rule book. It should have been removed in 1964. It was a rule designed for relay boxes.

There was talk of it in various threads. It has not been in the USFA magazine, because it hasn't even been through the FIE process. Don't hold your breath for this tip to be required.

You did say "if", didn't you? Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions DHCJr - I have alot of catching up to do...........

DanInMI · 02-10-2004, 03:10 PM

"Shorter time for "blocking-time": 300 milliseconds (was 550)"
I believe I read in an FIE article that the blocking time was changing to 300ms from 700 ms. Is 550 correct?

DanInMI · 02-10-2004, 03:17 PM

Veeco, as quoted in the article:
"I think the general idea behind reducing the lockout timings is to have [fewer] two-light actions, thus making the refereeing easier and the actions easier to understand by the fencers.

Basically, the referee will look at the lights, and if there is only one light, that means that the attack or counter-attack in time was valid. If there are 2 lights, then it means that the attack was valid if there was no parry, or that the riposte was valid if the attack was parried."

Yes, as I have said before, this is an attepmt by the FIE to overcome the reluctance of directors to call "in preparation" against a bent arm attack. I would diagree with the phrase "If there are 2 lights, then it means that the attack was valid," but that's the way they are calling it now, so Veeco is probably correct, this is how they will call it.

DanInMI · 02-10-2004, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DHCJr

The biggest change is a 2cm of travel. Maybe they will finally get rid of M.11.4. This will be much like the Epee travel, the tip must travel at least 2cm before the break in the circuit to signify a touch.

I think you mean 2mm.

***Craig*** · 02-10-2004, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673
I assume this article is in the latest US Fencing magazine, no?

Nope. Written for Fencing.Net - you can only find it here.

Walter had the idea for the article and turned it around in a matter of days. As soon as he had it edited, I approved it for publication and there you have it. Nice to have a news/editorial publication that isn't tied to a quarterly print calendar, isn't it?

Now, go tell all your fencing friends to go to www.fencing.net and read the articles!

Craig

DanInMI · 02-10-2004, 03:59 PM

*AUDIENCE APPLAUSE*

I enjoyed that, very nice job Walter.
Well written.
Logical conclusions.
Very entertaining to read.

I don't know that all that he has predicted will come to pass...but he has developed his ideas well.

Thanks Walter.

DanInMI · 02-10-2004, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DHCJr
I said IF. The tip has not been approved, it has only been proposed and tested. The rule I was talking about M.11.4. and the 1mm travel is an obsolete rule, that has never been taken out of the rule book. It should have been removed in 1964. It was a rule designed for relay boxes.

There was talk of it in various threads. It has not been in the USFA magazine, because it hasn't even been through the FIE process. Don't hold your breath for this tip to be required.

The tip was not only approved, but adopted. It will first be used by juniors next year. barring any unforeseen problems it will be used by the rest of us sometime after that.

veeco · 02-10-2004, 04:53 PM

Another team to watch as the new changes take into effect will be the Chinese team. They are already very strong, and their fencing is much more point oriented than, say the Italian team right now (I guess I should say half of the Italian team).

A very nice article.

grotto · 02-10-2004, 04:57 PM

If these changes come to pass, I would actually consider fencing foil again! Great article Walter. Now off to drill the disengage and deceive

***Craig*** · 02-10-2004, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by grotto
If these changes come to pass, I would actually consider fencing foil again! Great article Walter. Now off to drill the disengage and deceive

You don't need to wait for the changes to come to pass. If you watch the Chinese, Italian, and French teams fence you'll see that foil is moving that way already.

Craig

DHCJr · 02-10-2004, 05:11 PM

First, DanInMI, you are absolutely right it is 2mm, not cm. Thank you for catching that.

As for the If part, Craig and Walter should let the FIE know about the rule change. Before the FIE sent out their report, there was an 'Unofficial', reporting of what the vote was. The problem is when the FIE reported the changes in Escrime and press releases, there was no mention of the tip.

There is also the problem of 'Where are you going to get this tip, since there are no manufacturers who have come out with the tip. There were only some prototypes from one manufacturer.

If someone has something official from the FIE, I would like to see it.

wflaschka · 02-10-2004, 05:27 PM

About the mangiarotti tip... Veeco's translations and postings in http://www.fencing101.com/vb/showthr...&threadid=9079 were very helpful.

Quote:

COMPTE RENDU RAPIDE ET OFFICIEUX DES PRINCIPALES DECISIONS PRISES AUX CONGRES DE LEIPZIG LES 22 ET 23 NOVEMBRE 2003 ("FAST AND SEMI-OFFICIAL REPORT OF THE PRINCIPAL DECISIONS TAKEN WITH CONGERS OF LEIPZIG NOVEMBER 22, AND 23 2003")...
[Item] Adoption de la pointe Mangiarotti :
oui : 49 non : 39
(see this link: http://www.escrime-info.com/modules/...hp?storyid=446)

About the specifics, adoption timelines, adoption methods for the tip -- afaik it's unclear. What we do know is that the Leipzig congress voted to adopt it. I would be unsurprised if this vote were to be "forgotten"; it goes against a huge installed base of tips. Perhaps they're leaving it up to the equipment vendors to figure out how to make it work. The timing changes, not the hardware, are what get me excited. ("It's not the size of the canoe, but the motion in the ocean...")

(Also -- thanks, all, for the praise about the article! Shucks.)